RE: An alternative to JSP

hi all, > Among the alternatives we've kicked around: >comp.lang.java.html+template >comp.lang.java.template+tag >comp.lang.java.servlet+template >comp.lang.java.template-tech >comp.lang.java.web-tech > > Again, any suggestions welcome either here or in private e-mail. how

Re: An alternative to JSP

Glenn, Speaking of which: Yes, we need a place where the various templating and tagging approaches that somehow involve Java can be discussed. A thread like this thread needs a logical place for it to take place and right now there doesn't seem to be one as each list or Usenet group seems too

RE: An alternative to JSP

Brad Cox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: > At 11:03 AM -0800 01/25/2001, Mel Martinez wrote: > >That presumes the line termination > >character of choice for the output is a linefeed > >character. > > Good point. Will fix when I get a moment. > > >Another issue is that the example creates catena

RE: String/StringBuffer (was Re: An alternative to JSP)

gt; To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: String/StringBuffer (was Re: An alternative to JSP) > X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by amon.Central.Sun.COM id KAA15483 > > > Last paragraph in the java.lang.String

Re: An alternative to JSP

This list is for discussing issues related to developing the Tomcat servlet container, not design of web applications. Could this discussion get moved elsewhere? Thanks, Glenn Brad Cox wrote: > > At 11:23 AM -0500 01/26/2001, Brad Cox wrote: > >so the user's session will be lost if they ever

RE: String/StringBuffer (was Re: An alternative to JSP)

> Last paragraph in the java.lang.String javadoc says: > > The Java language provides special support for the string > concatentation operator > ( + ), and for conversion of other objects to strings. String > concatenation is > implemented through the StringBuffer class and its append > method

Re: An alternative to JSP

At 11:23 AM -0500 01/26/2001, Brad Cox wrote: >so the user's session will be lost if they ever browse >to a hard-coded html pag I meant to say... for browsers that don't support cookies or if the user has disabled cookies. -- --- Dr. Brad Cox; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone: 703 361 4751 Fax: 703 995

Re: An alternative to JSP

At 11:03 AM -0800 01/25/2001, Mel Martinez wrote: >That presumes the line termination >character of choice for the output is a linefeed >character. Good point. Will fix when I get a moment. >Another issue is that the example creates catenated >String literals. I would hope that the actual code

RE: String/StringBuffer (was Re: An alternative to JSP)

> Paul, > > Actually, my investigations in the past have shown that (at least in > Sun's JDK 1.2) this is implemented as: > > new StringBuffer > ("My").append("dog").append("has").append("fleas").toString(); > > It is also possible to write a statement like: > > "My" + "dog" + '.' >

String/StringBuffer (was Re: An alternative to JSP)

MAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: An alternative to JSP > X-Spam-Rating: h31.sny.collab.net 1.6.2 0/1000/N > > > > Mel Martinez wrote: > > > > Without getting into the larger issue, one problem > > that jumped out at me fro

Re: An alternative to JSP

Jon Stevens wrote: > > on 1/25/01 11:42 AM, "Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Just thought that I would point out that: > > "My " + "dog " + "has " + "fleas." will be compiled as one String: > > "My dog has fleas." and incurs no runtime penalties. In the case > > of literals it ca

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/25/01 11:42 AM, "Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Just thought that I would point out that: > "My " + "dog " + "has " + "fleas." will be compiled as one String: > "My dog has fleas." and incurs no runtime penalties. In the case > of literals it can be more efficient than StringBuffe

Re: An alternative to JSP

Mel Martinez wrote: > > Without getting into the larger issue, one problem > that jumped out at me from your article is (at least > in your examples) the MLS precompile looks at the > expression inside the digraphs and replaces line > terminations in the *.j source with linefeed > characters ('

Re: An alternative to JSP

Without getting into the larger issue, one problem that jumped out at me from your article is (at least in your examples) the MLS precompile looks at the expression inside the digraphs and replaces line terminations in the *.j source with linefeed characters ('\n'). That presumes the line termina

Re: An alternative to JSP (REVISED)

Thanks to everyone for the comments on my paper. I've tried to address them in the revised version by emphasizing the validation and site architecture and moving MLS into the supporting article. The new version is at http://virtualschool.edu/wap. I'd be interested whether the validation/site s

RE: An alternative to JSP

I would not call them "template engineers", but I already called them scripters. Anyway, I am sure there is an intermediate class of coders and there are much more of them (with different degrees of skill) than of the so called "Java engineers". My experience is that they are able to take over a

RE: An alternative to JSP

I have seen even DreamWeaver-only designers (with low understanding of HTML) doing just that with no problems. Have fun, Paulo Gaspar > -Original Message- > From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 01:49 > > on 1/14/01 3:11 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EM

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/14/01 5:34 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seems to me that your argument rests on the assumption that there exists > such a beast as a "template engineer" - someone who is skilled in HTML and > who understands coding without ever having had formal programming training. Act

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 1/14/01 3:11 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> on 1/11/01 8:30 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > >> Let me also state that at this point in time, I see V

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/14/01 3:11 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> on 1/11/01 8:30 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [snip] > >> Let me also state that at this point in time, I see Velocity+Turbine as >> being one of the best solutions

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 1/11/01 8:30 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > Let me also state that at this point in time, I see Velocity+Turbine as > being one of the best solutions out there. I agree it has benefits over JSP, but I do think it's still too

RE: An alternative to JSP

I used XSLT as a template mechanism and my feeling is that it is too heavy and too problematic for that purpose. WebMacro, Velocity and FreeMarker are less problematic and lighter. I have seen people trying to use XSLT for business logic just because they want to do everything with it, and they t

RE: An alternative to JSP

At 07:22 12/1/01 -0600, Nick Bauman wrote: >Somewhat unrelated, I hear a lot of people going gaga over XSLT for web >development. I understand the desire: a single document represents the >data of the page, while other documents are used to convert that data for >different clients / views with an

RE: An alternative to JSP

Somewhat unrelated, I hear a lot of people going gaga over XSLT for web development. I understand the desire: a single document represents the data of the page, while other documents are used to convert that data for different clients / views with an emphasis on content seperation from presentatio

RE: An alternative to JSP

> Exactly. It would have been nice if JSP was done right from the start > instead of having an original goal of attempting to provide a solution to > strictly compete with ASP. My thought is that JSP was `done right from the start' (at least, with custom taglibs)---it just doesn't solve the whole

RE: An alternative to JSP

Besides, I still found no great support for custom taglibs on DreamWeaver/UltraDev. OTOH, JSP + Custom Taglibs + Velocity/WebMacro can be a nice solution. I work with people that can use a couple of custom taglibs + SQL to get data from a database and then make a Vel./WM template work. They alre

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/12/01 12:31 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So did you Jon ... it's called Velocity :-) Exactly. It would have been nice if JSP was done right from the start instead of having an original goal of attempting to provide a solution to strictly compete with ASP. > JSP, a

RE: An alternative to JSP

Hi, Following the discussion we have decided to use an approach using the filter features of the new servlet specifications. A application foo will follow this steps: 0. some filtering is done for session stuff, security, etc. 1. the request is going to a controller servlet which is doing whate

Re: An alternative to JSP

Jon Stevens wrote: > on 1/12/01 11:49 AM, "Tomas Rokicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > With the solution we're deploying in-house here, your dynamic row > > example is just > > > > %tr rundata%%key% = %value% > > > > which is editable in WYSIWYG HTML editors, contains no Java code, > > and so

RE: An alternative to JSP

ms. I just thought I'd toss out an example of how we solved the `no code in JSP' problem. -tom -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: An alternative to JSP on 1/12/01 11:49

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/12/01 11:49 AM, "Tomas Rokicki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With the solution we're deploying in-house here, your dynamic row > example is just > > %tr rundata%%key% = %value% > > which is editable in WYSIWYG HTML editors, contains no Java code, > and so on . . . the magic %tr ...% tells

RE: An alternative to JSP

;ll shut up now. (It compiles down to JSPs.) -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 12, 2001 11:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: An alternative to JSP on 1/11/01 8:30 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: &

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 8:30 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Yeah, but thats an impl detail. You could easily modify it to load the HTML > on the fly, so that the HTML could be modified separately. The main thing I > like here is that you actually start with a "proper" HTML file, without a >

RE: An alternative to JSP

> Whatcha looking for: np.instantis.com ??? Just curious to see what's happening over there, nothing more. That's what browsers are for. What's the relevance to Tomcat? -tom - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For add

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > on 1/11/01 6:32 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Certainly I've never seen what I consider to be a clean way of letting HTML > > people do HTML and Java people do Java. Yes, I've seen some that are better > > than others (XMLC is proba

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 6:32 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think the real problem with the whole JSP/WebMacro/XMLC/ASP/CF scenario is > that HTML itself mixes presentation with logic to the point where any > solution which needs to generate HTML is naturally going to be hacky. I don't ag

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Geoff Soutter wrote: > > > > "Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > > > For what it's worth, I think that custom tags are the thing > > > that really saves JSP. On my last project, we were able to > > > encapsulate all logic into

Re: An alternative to JSP

Paul Speed wrote: [...] > As it turned out, for many of the custom tags we were able > to write web-developer versions that didn't require the full back-end > application server. Our web developers were then able to run tomcat > locally to help develop their pages and see what they loo

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 4:53 PM, "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Now this is fun... 216.216.10.57 - - [11/Jan/2001:17:03:45 -0800] "GET /jsp.gif HTTP/1.1" 200 74620 216.216.10.57 - - [11/Jan/2001:17:06:54 -0800] "GET / HTTP/1.1" 200 5 216.216.10.57 - - [11/Jan/2

Re: An alternative to JSP

Geoff Soutter wrote: > > "Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [snip] > > > For what it's worth, I think that custom tags are the thing > > that really saves JSP. On my last project, we were able to > > encapsulate all logic into a servlet framework and custom tags. > > (Actually, our

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 4:25 PM, "Geoff Soutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > IMHO, JSP is just an ASP/CF "me-too"... Not that it means it's not _useful_, > it's just not _elegant_. Look at all the spagetti-code ASP and CF sites > there are out there. Course now it has the J2EE stamp of approval, how good > i

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Paul Speed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [snip] > For what it's worth, I think that custom tags are the thing > that really saves JSP. On my last project, we were able to > encapsulate all logic into a servlet framework and custom tags. > (Actually, our framework ended up looking very similar t

Re: An alternative to JSP

Paul Speed wrote: > > I'll be curious to see where the JSP spec evolves next. To > me it seems logical to start incorporating more tags along the lines > of the current bean tags. Iteration and other control structures > seems like the most common part of the wheel that tag libraries se

Re: An alternative to JSP

"Craig R. McClanahan" wrote: > [ snip ] > > * My personal preference for the presentation layer is JSP (and has > been since long before I adopted a "sun.com" email address :-), for > several reasons: [ snip ] > > * Custom tags - can be used to encapsulate sophisticated > fu

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 12:12 PM, "Brad Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think these two quotes from the website will address your concern. My concern? > There is no official release yet, but there will be one shortly. However, you can get daily snapshots which are quite stable and ready to use. > Velo

Re: An alternative to JSP

I think these two quotes from the website will address your concern. There is no official release yet, but there will be one shortly. Velocity's design concept is borrowed from WebMacro. At 11:42 AM -0800 01/11/2001, Jon Stevens wrote: >on 1/11/01 11:21 AM, "Brad Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Re: An alternative to JSP

At 11:12 AM -0800 01/11/2001, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: >* I don't see any reasoning for why HTML-in-Java is better > than any of the alternatives -- just a presumptive conclusion. > The vast majority of the article is simply a description of your > recommended approach. Good point. I'll e

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/11/01 11:21 AM, "Brad Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Please take a look at: >> http://www.enhydra.org >> and >> http://xmlc.enhydra.org >> for more information. > > Will do. Looks a lot like WebMacro at first glance. > -- Absolutely not. XMLC is way different than WM or Velocity. Als

Re: An alternative to JSP

At 11:30 AM -0500 01/11/2001, Shawn McMurdo wrote: >I agree with most of your discussion of the disadvantages of JSP/ASP/etc, >but I believe your solution does not address a fundamental problem, which >is the complete separation of presentation resources from presentation logic. That is correct.

Re: An alternative to JSP

Brad Cox wrote: > I've uploaded an early rough draft of a pair of articles that boils > down to a critique of the JSP approach plus source code for a quite > different approach. I'd be very interested in feedback... of the > constructive variety, of course ;) > > The articles are at http://virtua

Re: An alternative to JSP

Thanks. No I'm not aware of Turbine, but I am aware of the approach described in the paper. That's what the company I was consulting for took that I (perhaps inaccurately) described as "similar to WebMacro". MLS? Preprocess code? WHAT? Could you explain what you mean by this? At 9:41 PM -0800

RE: An alternative to JSP

o get the eval. $199 per license (blech)... luckily, we're all rich, right? Jef -Original Message- From: Kyle F. Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2001 1:35 PM To: Paul Libbrecht Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: An alternative to JSP > > On Thur

Re: An alternative to JSP

Right on. HTML-in-Java vs. Java-in-HTML is a silly argument AFAIK. Neither's a very good solution long-term. The Java-in-HTML makes it near-impossible for designers to collaborate with coders, while the HTML-in-Java has that problem, plus the code bloat problem (the bytecode format will choke on

Re: An alternative to JSP

Hi Brad, Interesting articles. I agree with most of your discussion of the disadvantages of JSP/ASP/etc, but I believe your solution does not address a fundamental problem, which is the complete separation of presentation resources from presentation logic. Having the HTML embedded in a java clas

Re: An alternative to JSP

on 1/10/01 7:52 PM, "Brad Cox" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've uploaded an early rough draft of a pair of articles that boils > down to a critique of the JSP approach plus source code for a quite > different approach. I'd be very interested in feedback... of the > constructive variety, of cours