[TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: ML-DSA in TLS

2024-11-27 Thread John Mattsson
draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-sigs writes: “CompositeML-DSA only achieves SUF security if both components are SUF secure, which is not a useful property” I don’t understand why this would not be a useful property. I don’t like that IETF is standardizing EUF-CMA composites of the SUF-CMA ML-DSA.

[TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: ML-DSA in TLS

2024-11-27 Thread tirumal reddy
Hi Illari, The composite signature defined in draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-sigs is EUF-CMA secure and achieves weak non-separability. It aligns with the security considerations for hybrid digital signatures discussed in https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-pquip-hybrid-signature-spectrums/

[TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: ML-DSA in TLS

2024-11-27 Thread Andrey Jivsov
If a dual signature weakens the security beyond a single given signature, there is an attack to add a second signature, and break the first target signature by breaking the dual signature. This should not be possible, but that would be the analysis here: what harm does adding a second signature bri

[TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: ML-DSA in TLS

2024-11-27 Thread Scott Fluhrer (sfluhrer)
Ilari, you have stated that: > Even just the LAMPS composite signature combiner is known to be > cryptographically unsound I assume that you're talking about draft-ietf-lamps-pq-composite-sigs-03. If so, I must ask you to back up that statement, providing either a citation, or a self-evident e

[TLS] Re: Adoption call for TLS 1.2 Update for Long-term Support

2024-11-27 Thread David Benjamin
I agree with David's analysis. I think, when reasoning about this, we should separate the "how to profile TLS 1.2 down" parts from the "extend TLS 1.2 with more protocol fixes" parts. That's not a knock against those fixes... it's a good thing! Profiling things down is often a configuration-only ch

[TLS] Re: Adoption call for TLS 1.2 Update for Long-term Support

2024-11-27 Thread David A. Cooper
Hello Peter, This doesn't really answer my question. I don't have time to read through the 18 analysis papers. but [TLS-Analysis-14] describes the Triple Handshake attack. Isn't that fixed by the extended_master_secret extension (RFC 7627)? If so, then this could be addressed by a guidance do