Re: [RBW] Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Williams
Hey Jim, again depending on the weather I put a vote in for Point Reyes, the riding out there is great, some guerilla camping if youre up to it. And best of all, I feel like regardless of the weather, god or bad, there shouldnt be a ton of car/foot traffic out there. It doesnt get

[RBW] Re: Need shoe recommendations for riding.

2012-09-19 Thread Joe Bernard
A list member recommended Gola Harrier to me, and I'm very happy with them. I use them with Touring, Grip King, and RMX pedals. Joe Bernard Vallejo, CA. On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 11:12:10 PM UTC-7, lungimsam wrote: > Specifically something that is for regular pedals - not clipless. > I

[RBW] Need shoe recommendations for riding.

2012-09-19 Thread lungimsam
Specifically something that is for regular pedals - not clipless. I use MKS Touring Pedals with MKS toe clips - no straps. Looking for something that has a harder sole for longer rides. My regular, every day shoes are great on commutes, but feel a little soft on standing climbs, and sometimes my t

Re: [RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Toshi Takeuchi
It usually doesn't get colder than 40 degrees or so and the highs will usually be in the 50s or low 60s. Depending on your luck it can be splendidly sunny or cloudy and rainy/misty. I live in Oakland and love riding in my neighborhood--Skyline/Grizzly Peak/Wildcat/loop through Orinda/Moraga/Pinehur

[RBW] Re: Rode Stevens Canyon

2012-09-19 Thread Manuel Acosta
Which stevens canyon is this? I can only think of the one near Los Altos. Pictures are good classy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-

[RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread dougP
Jim: Keep us posted on your schedule. While I'm at the other end of the state, I'm interested in joining you. Threat of rain generally makes us Californians scurry for cover, as 45 degrees & soaking wet is more difficult to manage than 20 degrees & snow that can be brushed off. Besides, generall

[RBW] Re: FS: TRP Tektro RRL Brake Levers Gum Hoods, Nitto Deluxe Stem 120mm, Davinci couplers

2012-09-19 Thread Zack
all sold! thanks fellas. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/nb0idEmV6KEJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@google

[RBW] Re: Rain Gear?

2012-09-19 Thread Tony
Me too Liesl for the Carradice poncho. I bought mine at RBW a few years ago, before they designed their own. I was using the Carradice spats with it, but never liked the way the tops would keep moving below my knees as I rode. So, this winter it'll be Splats and ShinShields. One thing about cap

Re: [RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Manuel Acosta
> > Jim. Theres a couple of free campsite around Marin Headlands that you can register for but you can find plenty of places around to "camp". I haven't had the time nor do I have the company to go out and explore some "camping" spots but I know plenty people that know a handful of places. The

Re: [RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Anne Paulson
Jim, Hard to tell about the weather. If it is rainy enough, some of the dirt trails turn to a sticky clay that clogs up your brakes. And if you happen to actually be riding on the coast during a winter storm, you'll get pouring rain and strong winds. One real issue for camping in this area if you

[RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Thanks Manny! I assume it's possible to find out-of-the-way places to camp around Mt Tam and Marin Headlands, or is it more of a campground-only kinda camping experience? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discuss

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Doug Magney wrote: > Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's classic article on cold setting frame > dropouts. http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html > I've done it as a novice and got excellent results. Aha! I searched for the wrong terms when I went to Sheldon'

[RBW] Re: Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Manuel Acosta
Weather wise you'll be fine.It doesn't get really bad here compared to other parts of the country. Our winter is very mild. At worse you deal with rain but never freezing cold rain. (maybe only In terms of rides I like Tam and the Marin Headlands, but in the winter you're pretty much just clim

Re: [RBW] New Quickbeam! Pictures!

2012-09-19 Thread Manuel Acosta
> > Makes me sad that I can't find one my size. I always wanted to be IN with > the cool people > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/

[RBW] Re: New Quickbeam! Pictures!

2012-09-19 Thread BSWP
Another Orange QuickBeam, looks great! (and I know a small bit of the story on the "found in the attic" 64cm QB). Love the Bullmoose bars. It looks like you could lose a pair of links on your chain, and still have room for the tire. I would like a low-mounted front cable stop, like yours, but m

[RBW] New Quickbeam! Pictures!

2012-09-19 Thread Jeremy Till
I got my NOS Orange Quickbeam built up a month ago, but only just now got around to taking a posting some photos. The bike is still in flux, but nonetheless awesome. The full story: http://handlebarchronicles.blogspot.com/2012/09/bikes-rivendell-quickbeam.html Posted via my new blogging proje

[RBW] Winter travel in Riv country

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
I'm going to visit the SF area this winter. I plan to live mostly outside on my bike or in my tent for about 10 days. I'm accustomed to and well equipped for (mostly) dry, cold Minnesota winter, but I suppose wool and rain gear will keep me comfy enough in the SF area's warmer, moister winter we

[RBW] Frame prep...

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Probably not necessary to face the BB if you're using a modern cartridge square taper BB like Shimano or Tange. If you're using Phil, definitely don't face it. If you're using an external bearing BB, especially a really nice one like Chris King, then you should face it. -- You received this me

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Doug Magney
Here is a link to Sheldon Brown's classic article on cold setting frame dropouts. http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html I've done it as a novice and got excellent results. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this d

Re: [RBW] Frame prep...

2012-09-19 Thread Peter Morgano
I find green is hard to get across in photos. The old Sam green looked terrible on the Rivendell site but was really nice in person. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, soapscum wrote: > Hi, > > I'm prepping my new Hunqapillar frame for a build and I'm wondering how > necessary it is to face the bo

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Peter Morgano
Well it is obvious you are frustrated with the list members who are just trying to help so why dont you take "this" conversation out of "here" and take it up with Rivendell directly. If you wrote them as acrimonious of an email as you wrote us I would think they would respond right away... On Wed,

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
Thanks for the advice, guys, but you obviously didn't read my description of the situation. It's not a complete bike; it's just a frameset with nothing on it, except maybe the front wheel. There's no chain, no derailleur, et cetera. Since I only have two hands, I can't spread the dropouts and si

[RBW] Frame prep...

2012-09-19 Thread soapscum
Hi, I'm prepping my new Hunqapillar frame for a build and I'm wondering how necessary it is to face the bottom bracket shell. Nice to have? Must have? Also: have to say that the photos I've seen of the green/cream Hunqapillar livery don't do it justice. It's VERY nice, and I'm a tough customer

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Joe Bernard
This is getting out of hand. My Saluki rebranded as a Hilsen was a true 135, and the site claims 135. The buyer needs to work this out with Grant. Us telling him "it's not a problem" is not helping. Joe Bernard Vallejo, CA. On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:50:13 PM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote: > Ag

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread bwphoto
Back in the 70s I would experience some hand numbness after about 50-60 miles, for quite a few years the standard fix was to put the effected hand behind my back, squeeze my fingers several times and the problem would be gone. At the same time I started playing around with both saddle and brake

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Jim M.
Agreed. You should stand behind the bike to spread the dropouts and pull the wheel up into them. I put a 130 in 126, and a 126 in a 122 all the time. You won't damage the frame -- another benefit of steel. jim On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:40:47 PM UTC-7, ttoshi wrote: > > You don't put th

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Toshi Takeuchi
You don't put the wheel on the frame by pushing down on it with your weight. You need to spread the frame with your hands and then slide the wheel in. 3 mm means you just need to spread the frame by 1.5 mm on each side. It shouldn't require much force. You can see this by flexing the frame with y

[RBW] Re: FS: TRP Tektro RRL Brake Levers Gum Hoods, Nitto Deluxe Stem 120mm, Davinci couplers

2012-09-19 Thread The Cripler
Zack...it was ugly box. But quite functional! :) Love the A-bars BTW. On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 4:02:19 PM UTC-7, Zack wrote: > > Yep, that is what I did when I sold a pair of albas (make a box). Was > ugly, but got the job done. > > This stuff is all still available. Would do the whole

[RBW] Re: Grant Peterson (Rivendell) book event + ride! 9/23 ~ Naperville, IL

2012-09-19 Thread Marty
> > May be able to make this one, and if all goes well will have my Bombadil > along. Marty -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/qw

[RBW] Re: FS: TRP Tektro RRL Brake Levers Gum Hoods, Nitto Deluxe Stem 120mm, Davinci couplers

2012-09-19 Thread Zack
Yep, that is what I did when I sold a pair of albas (make a box). Was ugly, but got the job done. This stuff is all still available. Would do the whole shebang for $225. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discus

Re: [RBW] Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread Peter Morgano
If it was so nice why did you sell it? Just curious since it seems like not a lot of original owners still have this. On Sep 19, 2012 6:45 PM, "numbnuts" wrote: > I had a P56 for a few years. It was one of the nicest frames I have ever > ridden, and pretty too. I liked it better than my Rom. It w

Re: [RBW] Cycling in the Economist

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 8:57 PM, PATRICK MOORE wrote: > And in the US and in London. > > http://www.economist.com/node/21562252 >From the first article: "Yet while the future looks bright, America will struggle to catch up with northern Europe, where the proportion of local trips done by bike ca

Re: [RBW] Cycling in the Economist

2012-09-19 Thread bwphoto
Almost daily I see more and more old guys like me out doing the same thing I'm doing on a bike...running errands and just using a bike for getting around. This is something I hardly saw 10 to 15 years ago, there were very few of us riding for transportation let alone year around. Each time i ri

[RBW] Re: Rain Gear?

2012-09-19 Thread john
In my opinion, keeping warm while riding in the wet is more important than keeping dry. In fact, keeping dry, in really wet weather (be it from perspiration or leaks in fabric) is impossible, regardless of what any manufacturers say. That's why wool is such a great fabric: one tends to stay war

Re: [RBW] Re: A little OT: Swift Industries interview

2012-09-19 Thread John Bokman
This bag is really meant to be attatched to a decaleur, or mounting system which makes the bag quick release. That is to say, one can use it by attatching it to the platform of the front rack without a decaleur, but it will be most stable when using a decaleur. This type of bag is meant to

[RBW] Re: FS: Rare Nitto rack, new

2012-09-19 Thread Bill
sold! On Saturday, September 15, 2012 10:51:11 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote: > > For Sale: > > A Nitto RN201 saddlebag support rack. > > Only available to Japanese domestic market. I have never seen these > anywhere besides Japan. > > Attaches to rear cantilever brakes and bridge boss for fender. > Th

[RBW] FS: Ostrich Handlebar Bag

2012-09-19 Thread tragicallyaverage
Impulsively bought this Ostrich handlebar bag, thought it was smaller than it is. It'll mount on a Nitto F-15 h-bag support, or similar support system. 7x7x9.5 Map sleeve on top. Zippers for main compartment and front, side pockets are velcro tabs, mesh rear pocket. A boxy bag, I'd say it's a cr

[RBW] Re: Rain Gear?

2012-09-19 Thread Hoffsta
I am the type to ride very vigorously everywhere I go. I have yet to find rain gear that doesn't leave me overheated and soaked in sweat no matter the outside temps. I'd love to hear from other high output riders who have found success. Sean Eugene, OR -- You received this message because you

[RBW] WTT: Acorn Large Saddlebag for Nitto Mark's Rack

2012-09-19 Thread Shifty
I have a 6 month-old Acorn Large Saddlebag that just got supplanted by Erik P's old Nigel Smythe bag. I'd like to trade the Acorn straight up for a Nitto Mark's Rack. If interested, contact me off-list please. I'm happy to provide some photos, it's Ranger Tan waxed canvas. Cheers, Sean (Shifty)

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:41 AM, James Warren wrote: > I would not file it. Maybe you should call Rivendell. I will. Unfortunately, Keven seems to be out for the next week and a half. > Is it possible that your frame was tweaked in transit somewhere? You should > call them and not take my wor

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Leslie wrote: > Don't file.Bending it out by less than 3mm (about 1.5mm per side) is not > a problem; removing metal is. > > Look at how the rear triangle is made: a pair of chainstay tubes from the > bottom bracket shell coming back, a pair of seatstay tube

Re: [RBW] Re: First-time bicycle assembly advice

2012-09-19 Thread Michael Richters
On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Peter Morgano wrote: > Any decent bike shop will have tools to spread it that small amount and > realign dropouts. Cost me 40 bucks in nyc which is top of the market. Sure, any decent bike shop might. If only there were such a thing anywhere near where I live...

[RBW] Re: What do you use for saddle/seatpost security on your Rivendell?

2012-09-19 Thread HKett
My personal system is a Kryptonite cable run through both the rear wheel and the saddle rails and then attached to a u-lock. This is if I am locking my bike up in the city, or leaving it somewhere for more than 15 minutes or so (I know a bike can be stolen in much less time, but if I'm only stop

[RBW] Re: Hey I know this guy. He built my wheels!

2012-09-19 Thread Chris Lampe
I noticed the video a couple of days ago when I ordered my front wheel. Very nice! On Monday, September 17, 2012 9:17:43 PM UTC-5, Manuel Acosta wrote: > Gah! So awesome! Thanks for Will for pointing this out. Amazing film by > Jay about Rich! > http://vimeo.com/49212143 > > SOO cool! >

[RBW] FS: Acorn L bag, Ergon pedals, Nitto Stuff, MKS pedals

2012-09-19 Thread Shifty
I acquired a second hand Smythe bag and am parting with my awesome Acorn bag as a result. It holds everything and then some more. All in excellent or mint condition except one of the Nitto handlebars that has scratches on the wrap area from frequent stem swaps. All prices include shipping to 48

[RBW] Rode Stevens Canyon

2012-09-19 Thread jimD
Took a nice ride up Stevens Canyon. It felt very fall-like. The new bridges that have been recently completed change the 'riding in New Hampshire while actually in northern Calif.' vibe. Hope the improved bridges don't attract more cars. and per Manny, pictures prove it happened. http://www.flic

[RBW] Grant in Chicago (Naperville) this Sunday

2012-09-19 Thread Eric Peterson
He will be at Anderson Books this Sunday, 11AM, followed by a bike ride: http://www.andersonsbookshop.com/ This is in Naperville, 30 miles west of Chicago Eric Peterson -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To view this discussion

Re: [RBW] Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread numbnuts
I had a P56 for a few years. It was one of the nicest frames I have ever ridden, and pretty too. I liked it better than my Rom. It was noticeably smoother. And the price seems very good. Regards, Chris Redding, Ca. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "R

Re: [RBW] Re: What do you use for saddle/seatpost security on your Rivendell?

2012-09-19 Thread Ron Mc
I like the Abus 210 multi-loop cable lock. Yes, my bike lives indoors, but many times out riding may want to stop somewhere and go inside. It's a reasonable compromise between short-term security and weight. On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 12:54:10 PM UTC-5, Peter M wrote: > > I use these thi

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread bwphoto
A slight upward tilt of the saddle nose also takes pressure off both hands and shoulders that in combination with using the hoods more than the bar tops helps to straighten the nerve channel that runs trough your wrist. This has worked for me fot over 50 years. -- You received this message be

[RBW] Re: Rain Gear?

2012-09-19 Thread Nathan Lee
To add to this: I have a Mission Workshop and have used it pretty successfully for 2 rainy seasons or so. Recently took it on a tour from SF to LA riding solo/ultra light/motel camping. I caught 1 day of 4 hours of rain and had no soak through. I was also much happier at times using the jacket a

[RBW] Re: Hey I know this guy. He built my wheels!

2012-09-19 Thread Dave
Definitely intrigued by all the wheel choices , and welcome any good educational resources you may have. I'm interested in a dyno hub wheel for a general commuting, around town, weekend ride kind of thing. Bianchi volpe all riv'd out. Live in the bay area and would love to give business lo

[RBW] FS: Berthoud steel fenders

2012-09-19 Thread john
I bought 60mm Berthoud stainless steel fenders a year or so ago for my Sam Hillborne. They fit (barely) between my fork blades and chainstays, but I disapprove of the look - they are a bit too wide for this bike, at least to my taste. Optimally, I'd probably need the 50 mm version. However, the

[RBW] Re: Hey I know this guy. He built my wheels!

2012-09-19 Thread Dave
Cool video and seemingly fantastic products. Any good resources out there to learn more about rim and hub choices? I'm interested in upgrading my wheel set to something with a dyno hub, and living in the bay area it seems like an easy decision to buy locally as well. I ride a (riv'd out) bian

[RBW] Grant Peterson (Rivendell) book event + ride! 9/23 ~ Naperville, IL

2012-09-19 Thread Eric
Sunday the 23rd in Naperville! GRANT PETERSON We’re wheely happy to present Grant Petersen, who visits with his practical guide to riding your bike. In Just Ride, Petersen celebrates the pure joy of riding. Simple, safe and fun-for-all is his theme. Come meet the author, and follow the event with

Re: [RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread Joe Broach
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 1:39 PM, pb wrote: > > FWIW, I get less hand numbness when riding without gloves than with. I > don't like that fact, because I went down hard without gloves once. Palms > take a long time to heal. I've had the same experience--comfier without, except when I crash. I rid

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread pb
FWIW, I get less hand numbness when riding without gloves than with. I don't like that fact, because I went down hard without gloves once. Palms take a long time to heal. I just picked up a pair of the Specialized "74" gloves, which are made of thin, unpadded leather. Haven't ridden wit

[RBW] Re: Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread Montclair BobbyB
That was a Model P (Kogswell historians, please keep me honest). I rode a Kogswell P/R (Porteur/Randonneur designed by Jan Heine) for about a year or so. Mine was part of the "Gen 2" production run, which used slightly thinner tubing than the "Gen 1" P/R. Mine had a very cushy and compliant

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread Marc Irwin
I have experienced no,none, nada numbness on the Bosco Bars I use with stoker knobs. I've had a problem with hand numbness on everything else for years. Marc On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 4:03:57 PM UTC-4, Mojo wrote: >

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread Mojo
Interesting ideas Jim, thanks. Yes, I have been trying to climb at a higher rpm, more like 75-85 instead of 55-65. I will try one cog smaller on the next climb and see if it changes things. And related, this morning's dirt ride was most often grunting at rather low rpm up dirt climbs and no hand

RE: [RBW] Re: Hey I know this guy. He built my wheels!

2012-09-19 Thread Allingham II, Thomas J
That's a great post, Jim; you are justifiably proud! Even for those of us just starting out on wheelbuilding, it is a great source of pride to see and use wheels you built yourself. From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.c

[RBW] Re: Hey I know this guy. He built my wheels!

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
I probably don't build as many wheels as Rich, but I have built at least 2000 of them in the past 7 years or so. Very often, when I ride with a group of 8 or 10 friends, I realize that most or all of the group is rolling on "my" wheels. I feel proud of my work when I see that. Likewise, I'm sur

[RBW] Re: Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
I've never ridden one. I doubt that very many actually exist. At the time, Kogswell had numerous models listed, none of which seemed to actually be obtainable. I would guess that he had maybe 50 or 100 of each model, distributed across various sizes, before he moved on to the next model (i.e. t

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
I also experience most or my hand and crotch discomfort/numbness on prolonged climbs, with various bars. A number of years ago, I built up my first fixed gear. I intended to ride off-road on it, so I geared it pretty low, like 50 inches. I had a heckuva time riding that bike without hand (and b

[RBW] Re: Hand Numbness, an observation

2012-09-19 Thread Mojo
Thanks for the replies guys. So this is an observation unique to me, not others? My saddle position is now fixed after years of experimentation, and then stems/bars adjusted to that. So I am not moving the saddle. I typically climb on the ramps or hoods but at times in the drops (one of the

[RBW] Re: Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread hobie
How do they handle or ride? On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 12:24:46 PM UTC-4, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: > > Maybe 6 or 7 years ago, Matthew from Kogswell gave me one of these in the > same size for free. I think the MSRP was $750 or $800 then, sort of a > budget Rambouillet. It's not

[RBW] Re: Nice Lugged frame on ebay

2012-09-19 Thread Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Maybe 6 or 7 years ago, Matthew from Kogswell gave me one of these in the same size for free. I think the MSRP was $750 or $800 then, sort of a budget Rambouillet. It's not my size, but I hung it on the wall of my shop for a couple years. Finally I took it to a swap meet in Madison with every i

[RBW] Re: Rain Gear?

2012-09-19 Thread pam
I like the 02 jacket. I like the one with the hood. My old one got stolen out of my pannier then I got a North Face jacket with DWR but I sweat too much and I'm just wet from the inside even with pit zips. Now I'm going to wear my husband's 02 jacket. Light, cheap and it works. On Thursda

[RBW] Re: What do you use for saddle/seatpost security on your Rivendell?

2012-09-19 Thread pam
I use an old Gap bag with the drawstring. I pull the string taut so that it doesn't fly off - which is why I don't use old grocery bag. I intentionally do not want to look like I have a great saddle and buy a saddle cover. I think the thief will go to the bike with the nice saddle cover. An