On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Don Blaheta wrote:
>
> To turn it around, if I hand you a compositional expression, I also hand
> you the syntax rule and the values of all evaluable sub-expressions,
> then you can 100% reliably hand back the value of the overall
> expression, and this seems to b
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, John Clements
wrote:
>
> Hang on... you're still using the term "hygienic" in the non-Felleisen way.
> That is, if we accept that a hygienic system is one that has well-defined
> behavior but where you can bind new names when you explicitly ask to, then
That'
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:49 PM, John Clements
wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Robby Findler
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Joe Marshall
>>> wrote:
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>
>> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is ro
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Robby Findler
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Joe Marshall
>> wrote:
On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly that
> the __macro system__ (as a whole) should res
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Joe Marshall wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Robby Findler
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Joe Marshall
>> wrote:
On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly th
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Robby Findler
wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Joe Marshall wrote:
>>> On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>>>
Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly that
the __macro system__ (as a whole) should respect the
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Joe Marshall wrote:
>> On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>>
>>> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly that
>>> the __macro system__ (as a whole) should respect the
>>> lexical structure of your program.
>
> It is somewhat unfortuna
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Richard Lawrence
wrote:
>
> "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first
> place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you
> are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." (Brian W. Kernighan
> and P. J. Plauger in The Ele
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>
>> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly that
>> the __macro system__ (as a whole) should respect the
>> lexical structure of your program.
It is somewhat unfortunate that the name `hygiene' has caught
on here. It really ought
Richard Cleis writes:
> These two threads remind me of an observation that I wish I could cite:
>
> "Debugging programs is harder than writing programs. Those who write
> programs at the limits of their ability are unqualified to debug
> them."
You might be thinking of this:
"Debugging is twice
How about "noncompositional"? This word and its opposite have fairly
technical linguistic meanings. A "compositional" phrase (= expression)
is one whose meaning can be (correctly) inferred only by knowing the
meanings of their parts and the semantic rule associated with the syntax
form of the exp
These two threads remind me of an observation that I wish I could cite:
"Debugging programs is harder than writing programs. Those who write programs
at the limits of their ability are unqualified to debug them."
In this case: "Macros are harder to understand than fundamental programming.
Those
On Nov 23, 2010, at 5:38 PM, David Herman wrote:
>> Is this like the difference between C's type system and ML's?
>
> No, maybe I wasn't clear. It's hard to come up with a precise definition of
> the class of macros that John's talking about. When Matthias et al invented
> hygienic macro syste
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:10:23AM -0800, John Clements wrote:
>
> On Nov 23, 2010, at 11:08 AM, John Clements wrote:
>
> >
> > On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Nov 20, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Greg Hendershott wrote:
> >>
> >>> But I didn't get the
> >>> impre
> Is this like the difference between C's type system and ML's?
No, maybe I wasn't clear. It's hard to come up with a precise definition of the
class of macros that John's talking about. When Matthias et al invented
hygienic macro systems, the idea was that the system would "get scope right"
(a
Is this like the difference between C's type system and ML's? Racket
allows for unhygienic macros so does Racket not implement a "hygienic
macro system"?
On 11/23/2010 04:46 PM, David Herman wrote:
> No. The problem is it's never been clear what that category of macros is that
> John's talking ab
No. The problem is it's never been clear what that category of macros is that
John's talking about, but it does not violate hygiene. By definition, in a
hygienic macro system, there is no macro that can make the macro system
unhygienic.
Now good luck trying to define what that category is! I wo
>> Dave Herman mentioned this to me some time ago, and my immediate response
>> was this: okay, if the term "hygiene" refers to a macro system and not to a
>> macro, then *what word* should we use to describe macros that violate
>> transparency? "non-transparent"?
> Oh dear... would that word b
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> Dave Herman mentioned this to me some time ago, and my immediate response was
> this: okay, if the term "hygiene" refers to a macro system and not to a
> macro, then *what word* should we use to describe macros that violate
> transparency? "non-tr
On Nov 23, 2010, at 11:08 AM, John Clements wrote:
>
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Greg Hendershott wrote:
>>
>>> But I didn't get the
>>> impression that all or even most of the macro techniques were
>>> unhygienic.
>>
>>
>>
On Nov 20, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Matthias Felleisen wrote:
>
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 9:01 PM, Greg Hendershott wrote:
>
>> But I didn't get the
>> impression that all or even most of the macro techniques were
>> unhygienic.
>
>
> Hygiene is a technical term. The idea is roughly that
> the __macro
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