Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Steven Scott
One of the basic principles of testing is "test interface, not implementation." Tests that violate this principle become "change detector tests" instead of "correctness tests" and essentially prevent any improvements to the code. In C++ objects have "public" and "private" methods, and the testing

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread J C Nash
I'm generally in accord with Duncan on this. There are inevitably situations where general rules don't apply. Our challenge is to find practical ways to keep the overall workload of all participants in the process to a minimum. JN On 2021-04-16 10:18 a.m., Duncan Murdoch wrote: > On 16/04/2021

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Duncan Murdoch
On 16/04/2021 9:49 a.m., J C Nash wrote: Another approach is to change the responsibility. My feeling is that tests in the TESTING package should be modifiable by the maintainer of the TESTED package, with both packages suspended if the two maintainers cannot agree. We need to be able to move

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread J C Nash
Another approach is to change the responsibility. My feeling is that tests in the TESTING package should be modifiable by the maintainer of the TESTED package, with both packages suspended if the two maintainers cannot agree. We need to be able to move forward when legacy behaviour is outdated o

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Duncan Murdoch
An offline message said "Oh, you mean you're asking for an actual object-oriented language that hides the internal representations of objects from users of a package. Unfortunately for all of us, that isn't R." Actually, I don't think that's what I want. We already have lots of languages l

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Rainer Krug
> On 16 Apr 2021, at 14:06, Duncan Murdoch wrote: > > On 16/04/2021 7:54 a.m., Hugh Parsonage wrote: >> My 2c is that if a package has actually tested something like that >> (say, the ordering of a list's elements), then it is 100% likely that >> a script out there depends on that behaviour too

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Duncan Murdoch
On 16/04/2021 7:54 a.m., Hugh Parsonage wrote: My 2c is that if a package has actually tested something like that (say, the ordering of a list's elements), then it is 100% likely that a script out there depends on that behaviour too. I suspect this test is not intentional, and it really wouldn

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Duncan Murdoch
On 16/04/2021 7:40 a.m., brodie gaslam wrote: An all.equal method?  This might not work with 3rd edition though (untested), and I'm not sure what method registration requirements would exist for the user. It already has one, but it isn't used by testthat 3. Duncan Murdoch

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread Hugh Parsonage
My 2c is that if a package has actually tested something like that (say, the ordering of a list's elements), then it is 100% likely that a script out there depends on that behaviour too. In other words, the change is not inconsequential. R users are in debt to package developers but I think it be

Re: [R-pkg-devel] Problems with too much testing

2021-04-16 Thread brodie gaslam via R-package-devel
An all.equal method?  This might not work with 3rd edition though (untested), and I'm not sure what method registration requirements would exist for the user. Best, B. On Friday, April 16, 2021, 6:09:24 AM EDT, Duncan Murdoch wrote: I'm updating the rgl package, and have come across the