Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Wed, Nov 04, 2020 at 07:50:52AM +0100, Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > Hi, > > > > I think not. Obviously each firmware should have its own ABI no matter > > > whether its public or proprietary. For proprietary firmware, it should > > > be understood by the proprietary userspace counterpart. > > > >

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

Hi, > > I think not. Obviously each firmware should have its own ABI no matter > > whether its public or proprietary. For proprietary firmware, it should > > be understood by the proprietary userspace counterpart. > > Userspace does not necessarily need to interpret the contents. The > vendor c

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Tue, Nov 3, 2020 at 7:53 AM Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/11/2 下午6:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 10:51:18AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: > >> On 2020/10/30 下午9:15, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:08 PM Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, St

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/11/2 下午6:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 10:51:18AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/30 下午9:15, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:08 PM Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang w

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 05:34:50AM -0500, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 10:27:54AM +, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 11:00:12AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: > > > > > > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > > > I still don't get why it must be

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 10:27:54AM +, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 11:00:12AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: > > > > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > > I still don't get why it must be opaque. > > > If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each dev

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 11:00:12AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: > > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > I still don't get why it must be opaque. > > If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each device > > needs explicit enablement in each VMM (QEMU, cloud-hypervisor, etc)

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Mon, Nov 02, 2020 at 10:51:18AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote: > > On 2020/10/30 下午9:15, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:08 PM Jason Wang wrote: > > > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang wrote: > > > > > On 2020/10/30

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: I still don't get why it must be opaque. If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each device needs explicit enablement in each VMM (QEMU, cloud-hypervisor, etc). Let's invert the question: why does the VMM need to understand the devi

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/11/1 下午4:26, Paolo Bonzini wrote: Il sab 31 ott 2020, 22:49 Michael S. Tsirkin > ha scritto: > > I still don't get why it must be opaque. > > If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each device > needs explicit enablement in eac

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 下午9:15, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:08 PM Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/30 下午2:21, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson wrot

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

Il sab 31 ott 2020, 22:49 Michael S. Tsirkin ha scritto: > > > I still don't get why it must be opaque. > > > > If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each device > > needs explicit enablement in each VMM (QEMU, cloud-hypervisor, etc). > > And QEMU cares why exactly? > QEMU cares

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:13:59AM +, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > > 3. The device can save/load opaque blobs. This is the initial VFIO > > > approach. > > > > > > I still don't get why it must be opaque. > > If the device state format needs to be in the VMM then each device > needs explicit ena

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:08 PM Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang wrote: > >> On 2020/10/30 下午2:21, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson > >>> wrote: > It's great to revisi

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 下午7:13, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/30 下午2:21, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson wrote: It's great to revisit ideas, but proclaiming a uAPI is bad solely because the data transfer is

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:46 AM Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/30 下午2:21, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson > > wrote: > >> It's great to revisit ideas, but proclaiming a uAPI is bad solely > >> because the data transfer is opaque, without defining why tha

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 下午2:21, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson wrote: It's great to revisit ideas, but proclaiming a uAPI is bad solely because the data transfer is opaque, without defining why that's bad, evaluating the feasibility and implementation of defining

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 上午11:04, Alex Williamson wrote: On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:11:23 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/29 下午11:46, Alex Williamson wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 23:09:33 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/29 下午10:31, Alex Williamson wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 Jason

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

> A migration compatibility interface has not been determined for vfio. > We currently rely on the vendor drivers to provide their own internal > validation and harmlessly reject migration from an incompatible device. > It would be great if we could make progress on this, but it's a > difficult pro

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 3:04 AM Alex Williamson wrote: > It's great to revisit ideas, but proclaiming a uAPI is bad solely > because the data transfer is opaque, without defining why that's bad, > evaluating the feasibility and implementation of defining a well > specified data format rather than

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:11:23 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/29 下午11:46, Alex Williamson wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 23:09:33 +0800 > > Jason Wang wrote: > > > >> On 2020/10/29 下午10:31, Alex Williamson wrote: > >>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 > >>> Jason Wang wrote: > >>>

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/29 下午11:46, Alex Williamson wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 23:09:33 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/29 下午10:31, Alex Williamson wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: Here are notes from the session: protocol

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/30 上午2:07, Paolo Bonzini wrote: On 29/10/20 18:47, Kirti Wankhede wrote: On 10/29/2020 10:12 PM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 04:15:30PM +, David Edmondson wrote: On Thursday, 2020-10-29 at 21:02:05 +08, Jason Wang wrote: 2) Did qemu even try to migrate

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 29/10/20 18:47, Kirti Wankhede wrote: > > On 10/29/2020 10:12 PM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 04:15:30PM +, David Edmondson wrote: >>> On Thursday, 2020-10-29 at 21:02:05 +08, Jason Wang wrote: >>> 2) Did qemu even try to migrate opaque blobs before? It's proba

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 10/29/2020 10:12 PM, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote: On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 04:15:30PM +, David Edmondson wrote: On Thursday, 2020-10-29 at 21:02:05 +08, Jason Wang wrote: 2) Did qemu even try to migrate opaque blobs before? It's probably a bad design of migration protocol as well. The

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 04:15:30PM +, David Edmondson wrote: > On Thursday, 2020-10-29 at 21:02:05 +08, Jason Wang wrote: > > > 2) Did qemu even try to migrate opaque blobs before? It's probably a bad > > design of migration protocol as well. > > The TPM emulator backend migrates blobs that

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Thursday, 2020-10-29 at 21:02:05 +08, Jason Wang wrote: > 2) Did qemu even try to migrate opaque blobs before? It's probably a bad > design of migration protocol as well. The TPM emulator backend migrates blobs that are only understood by swtpm. dme. -- She's as sweet as Tupelo honey, she's

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 29/10/20 16:46, Alex Williamson wrote: >>> Clearly we're also trying to account for proprietary devices where even >>> for suspend/resume support, proprietary drivers may be required for >>> manipulating that internal state. When we move device emulation >>> outside of QEMU, whether in kernel o

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 23:09:33 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/29 下午10:31, Alex Williamson wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 > > Jason Wang wrote: > > > >> On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > >>> Here are notes from the session: > >>> > >>> protocol stability: > >>>

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/29 下午10:31, Alex Williamson wrote: On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: Here are notes from the session: protocol stability: * vhost-user already exists for existing third-party applications * vfio-user is

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 21:02:05 +0800 Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > Here are notes from the session: > > > > protocol stability: > > * vhost-user already exists for existing third-party applications > > * vfio-user is more general but will take more t

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 1:03 PM Jason Wang wrote: > On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > > Here are notes from the session: > > > > protocol stability: > > * vhost-user already exists for existing third-party applications > > * vfio-user is more general but will take more time

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 29/10/20 14:02, Jason Wang wrote: > > > 1) Reading something that is opaque to userspace is probably a hint of > bad uAPI design > 2) Did qemu even try to migrate opaque blobs before? It's probably a bad > design of migration protocol as well. The nested live migration data is an opaque blob.

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On 2020/10/29 下午8:08, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: Here are notes from the session: protocol stability: * vhost-user already exists for existing third-party applications * vfio-user is more general but will take more time to develop * libvfio-user can be provided to allow device imple

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

Here are notes from the session: protocol stability: * vhost-user already exists for existing third-party applications * vfio-user is more general but will take more time to develop * libvfio-user can be provided to allow device implementations management: * Should QEMU launch dev

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

The session will be at 11:00 UTC. The meeting URL is https://meet.jit.si/QEMUOoPDevices. Stefan

Re: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 03:14:00PM +, Stefan Hajnoczi wrote: > There will be a birds-of-a-feather session at KVM Forum, a chance for > us to get together and discuss Out-of-Process Device Emulation. > > Please send suggestions for the agenda! > > These sessions are a good opportunity to reach

RE: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

; > jag.ra...@oracle.com; s...@redhat.com; kra...@redhat.com; Felipe > Franciosi ; Marc-André Lureau > ; Alex Bennée ; > David Gibson > Subject: RE: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020 > > > -Original Message- > > From: Stefan Hajnoc

RE: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

anciosi ; Marc-André Lureau > ; s...@redhat.com; David Gibson > > Subject: Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020 > > There will be a birds-of-a-feather session at KVM Forum, a chance for > us to get together and discuss Out-of-Process Device Emulation

Out-of-Process Device Emulation session at KVM Forum 2020

There will be a birds-of-a-feather session at KVM Forum, a chance for us to get together and discuss Out-of-Process Device Emulation. Please send suggestions for the agenda! These sessions are a good opportunity to reach agreement on topics that are hard to discuss via mailing lists. Ideas: * H