ing it). The point of
making the assertion is to pass on information that would otherwise by
ambiguous:
"There is that same (identity) cat again (not merely one that looks like it)."
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list with multiple links to the same video on Youtube, one
which claims to prove that the world is not a moving sphere.
List admins, can you please remove nopsidy's spam posts, and unsubscribe him if
possible?
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...]
> Yes it is. Pascal VAR parameters are exactly like Python a assignment.
Proof by assertion?
"It is true, because I say it is true!"
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use the key to the puzzle is
> that everything matches a line from the following look-up table:
>
> 5 => 5
> 7 => 12
> 9 => 21
> 19 => banana
Well played sir!
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same way that people stopped taking me seriously when I
> implemented Fizz Buzz in CSS.
>
> Though they were rather amused...
CSS is Turing complete. If they stopped taking you seriously, that speaks
volumes about *them* rather than either you or CSS.
I am intrigued by the (alleged?) HTML ver
ther than being any
> sort of "hey look, HTML is a programming language" thing.
Which is what I thought it was. I thought I had learned something new, but it
turned out I was right again :-(
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at takes an instance,
> a dict, a key, and an optional value?
I'm afraid your example is too generic for me to give an opinion. Do you
literally mean a method called "method"? What does it do?
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Maybe two hands.
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ng if you declare an array
parameter without "var", and copy the whole array.
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On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 02:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 1:30 AM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 12:28 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> languages without mutable objects don't
>>> really care whether they're p
umber base you are using.
A harder question is, what if you take a random number from the Integers? How
many digits will it have in (say) base 10? I don't have a good answer to that.
I think it may be ill-defined.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_all
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r don't apply to Python objects, or they apply equally to
all objects in the universe and there's nothing we can do about it. Either way,
the problem of defining the Python `is` operator without referring to memory is
solved.
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On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 05:48 pm, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> A harder question is, what if you take a random number from the Integers? How
>> many digits will it have in (say) base 10? I don't have a good answer to
>> that. I think it may be ill-defi
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 05:54 pm, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> py> class K: # defines an object
>> ... def __init__(self, x):
>> ... self.x = x
>> ... def append(self, value):
>> ... self.x.append(value)
>
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 08:20 pm, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>
>> On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 12:28 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> languages without mutable objects don't
>>> really care whether they're pass-by-X or pass-by-Y.
>>
port.
(By the way, RHEL 6 goes out of Production Phase 3 in 2020.)
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On Sun, 3 Sep 2017 03:03 am, MRAB wrote:
> On 2017-09-02 11:59, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Sep 2017 08:53 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>> I want to delay a computation and then print it, in the REPL (interactive
>>> interpreter). I have
On Fri, 8 Sep 2017 01:01 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2017 at 7:39:38 AM UTC+5:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> Rustom, I've already given you the definitive answer to your question about
>> how to define `is` without talking about memory. You haven
eigner:
"Who is the father of this class?"
Native:
*PLONK*
I'll leave you to guess where I think your response fits in this scale :-)
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you won't
even get *paid* support.)
I know of a couple of companies still running Python 1.5 apps. They work,
they're not connected to the Internet, they don't care about bug fixes or
security upgrades, so they have no reason to upgrade.
But they're sure not writing *new* app
;
and make a dispassionate choice according to which one has the best cost/benefit
ratio. And that choice won't always be #2.
[1] Depends on the code base, and the developers.
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#x27;s the thing about infinity. No matter how huge the number is, it is still
falls infinitely short of infinite.
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rtage of expensive Python rockstars who make unreasonable
demands like "decent working conditions" and "life-work balance";
- perhaps it is worth the increased cost of re-writing your app to get better
performance or reliability (or at least somebody thinks so...)
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move from Python 2 to 3 then continue
> to help answer questions when they are Python 2 based.
As we do. Even if some of us can't help evangelising for Python 3 when they do
so :-)
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thod. If you think it is fast, that's because you have only
tested it on small lists. Try a list with (say) a million items.
Probably the best way is to use the bisect module to insert into a sorted list.
Or append to the end, then sort in place. Python's sort is *very* efficient
with al
On Sat, 9 Sep 2017 10:34 am, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> The paradox of the axe is one illustration of the difficulty in defining "the
>> same" in full generality.
>
> The axe situation doesn't arise in Python, because "same
>
#x27;bbb'", 'us-ascii' ), \
> |... byteorder='big', signed=False )
> |-21491679493
>
> .
And they say Germans have no sense of humour :-)
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years ago, if I remember correctly. How did that
prediction work out for you?
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hon 4 will not be a major compatibility break, it will
be more like the Python 1 to 2 transition. But you already know that, because
we've had this discussion before. Multiple times.
You can stop spreading this FUD now.
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On Mon, 11 Sep 2017 12:46 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
> if we consider the damage that small changes
> (like the print statement versus print function and
> raw_input versus input) have caused
The word for negative damage is "improvement".
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7;m afraid few programmers will
> be willing/able to get over the hump, and there are a number of tricky
> aspects to be extra careful about.
The huge popularity of asynchronous routines in the Javascript and Node.JS
community is evidence that it won't be "few programmers" but
u meant to reply to the
Tutor list.
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ues being on the bleeding
edge, and Red Hat customers as a rule value stability and long term support
over the latest shiny new features.
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it isn't all about you. Just because you started this thread -- oh wait, you
didn't *wink* -- doesn't mean you control its direction. If people want to
discuss the pros and cons of upgrading, without specifically badgering you, you
should remember that *it isn't about you* and don
ion when Prince Charles,
Duke of Edinburgh, appears in public wearing a kilt.
[1] Gosh, that's a shocker. Bet you didn't see that coming.
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nt(x))(y), values)
map(lambda z: (lambda y: (lambda x: int(x))(y))(z), values)
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; and if the caller chooses to shoot
themselves in the foot by passing a bad argument, they'll get what's coming to
them.
(Defensive programming is not only the receiving function's responsibility. The
caller should program defensively to ensure they don't pass the wrong arguments
t
if any(v is None for v in values):
print "at least one value was None"
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On Sat, 16 Sep 2017 04:24 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> but switching your dict/list system to be
> disk-backed is a lot harder.
import shelve
:-)
Now you have two problems :-)
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different when they program with Python."
/rant off
And no, for once it wasn't Ranting Rick.
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)
> File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ast.py", line 63, in _convert
> in zip(node.keys, node.values))
> File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ast.py", line 62, in
> return dict((_convert(k), _convert(v)) for k, v
> File "/usr/lib/python2.7/ast.py", line 79, in _convert
> raise ValueError('malformed string')
> ValueError: malformed string
Here's the bug tracker: make a feature request for literal_eval to be more
concise in its traceback and provide a more useful and detailed error message.
https://bugs.python.org/
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d from my client) asking for help with some sorting
> program... I'm pretty sure the partitioning logic would croak on Python3
> due to floating point results in the slice indices:
>
> pA = part[:n/2]
> pB = part[n/2:]
If you want integer division, you have to use integer div
On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 04:00 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>"Hi, I've been programming in Python for what seems like days now, and here's
>>all the things that you guys are doing wrong.
>
> I never ever have written a line of Python
hy
browsing the web today on full ADSL or faster speeds is *slower* than using a
dial up modem in the 1990s? This is why.
www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/05/why_your_internet_experience_i.html
Nine years later, and the problem is worse, not better.
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 02:07 pm, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>>> concept integer / integer => integer_result
>> That would be C, and C derived languages, perhaps?
>
> Certainly not. Fortran, machine languages, etc. all do that too.
&
ng, and was added for Numerical
Python. It wasn't until recently (Python 3.4 perhaps?) that it finally became
legal to write '...' instead of 'Ellipsis' outside of slice notation.
Here's Peter Otten talking about it way back in 2004:
http://grokbase.com/t/python/pyt
ript's are
better?
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hen you would do:
mystring.decode('utf-8')
and it will return a Unicode string of "code points" (think: more or less
characters).
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 08:43 pm, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 5:54 PM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> To even *know* that there are branches of maths where int/int isn't defined,
>> you need to have learned aspects of mathematics that aren't even
of printing etc.
Sure you can. But where the ability to mock print shines is when you're dealing
with an already existing function that you cannot change and that already uses
print.
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is:
def ex_GST(inc_GST):
if isinstance(inc_GST, int):
return divmod(10*inc_GST, 11)[0] # throw away any remainder
else:
return 10*inc_GST/11 # include the remainder
which is not what anyone wanted. And because this was a silent error, giving
garbage results instead o
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 04:09 am, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2017-09-18 00:42, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 11:51 pm, Tim Golden wrote:
>> Presumably you've never wanted to print to something other than
>> std.out. The syntax in Python 2 is horrid:
>>
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:15 am, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Sunday, September 17, 2017 at 9:42:34 AM UTC-5, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 11:51 pm, Tim Golden wrote:
>>
>> [Snip: Reasons why print function is better than print statement]
>>
>> I
s a bool;
comparing it to True adds redundancy and noise, not clarity.
Your insistence on adding the entirely superfluous, unnecessary and
distracting "== True" at the end of something which is already True or False
demonstrates a lack of fluency in the language and difficulty in reasoning
a
olve
two fingers but its effectively a single movement.
If you micro-analyse this, not all keystrokes are equivalent. They use different
fingers, different hands, the movements are different. The fact that some
characters need two simultaneous keypresses is not so important.
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code and make it publicly available.
[1] Always supposing I could write a musical score.
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On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 10:42 pm, Rick Johnson wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> [snip: offensive statements]
>>
>> Your insistence on adding the entirely superfluous, unnecessary
>
> Please acquaint yourself with the definition of superfluous,
> a
.org/2/reference/datamodel.html#object.__nonzero__
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/expressions.html#boolean-operations
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/compound_stmts.html#the-if-statement
https://docs.python.org/3/reference/datamodel.html#object.__bool__
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False} → False
I thought it was intentional, because there's nothing more obvious than that
False is false. Unless you're a pedant and completist like me, why even bother
mentioning that False is falsey?
Especially since you left out so many more obvious values.
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ously huge
numbers of digits, leading to excessive memory use and even more performance
degradation.
Guido strongly dislikes the rational option because of his experience with ABC,
where simple-looking calculations would often grind to a halt as they
calculated fractions with millions or billions
ave type(obj) and isinstance(x, Type), plus a
slightly more specialised version issubclass.
Convert to a string or human-readable representation.
And test whether an object is truthy or falsey.
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oint is, we all make the occasional silly error. Doesn't mean we should
cripple our functions and fill the language with special cases like the print
statement to avoid such rare errors. If print had always been a function, and
someone suggested making it a statement, who would be willing to a
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 03:44 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano did *not* write
> [it was edited/abbreviated by me - S. R.]:
> |disadvantages:
> |0 - it makes print a special thing
> |1 - beginners have to unlearn
> |2 - `print(x, y)` is *not* the same as `print x, y`
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 04:31 am, bartc wrote:
> On 19/09/2017 17:30, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
[snip list of problems with print]
> Can't you get around all those with things like sys.stdout.write?
If you had kept reading, you would have seen that I wrote:
Of course an experien
ronounced the brackets:
"open paren open paren three squared close paren plus the square root of four
hundred close paren by two"
they could have been calculating *anything* by the time you get to the end.
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On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 03:22 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> I can only think of four operations which are plausibly universal:
>>
>> Identity: compare two operands for identity. In this case, the type o
n logic gates. After refining the silicon to make the
> transistors first, of course.
Silicon? You had it easy.
In my day all we had was hydrogen and helium, we had to make our own silicon
using fusion.
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enou
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 09:50 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 07:12 pm, Gregory Ewing wrote:
>
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> Alternatively, you should design an instruction set and implement it
>>> using microcode and AM2900 bit-slice processors.
&
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:04 pm, Bill wrote:
> Robin Becker wrote:
>> On 16/09/2017 01:58, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If you want to test for None specifically:
>>>
>>> if any(v is None for v in values):
>>> print &
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 02:55 pm, Pavol Lisy wrote:
> On 9/19/17, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> The point is, we all make the occasional silly error. Doesn't mean we should
>> cripple our functions and fill the language with special cases like the
>&g
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:07 pm, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> I'm not sure whether to be surprised or not.
>
> The first one only checks for identity, which should be really fast, while the
> `is` operator tests for equality too,
Oops, that's supposed to be `in`, not `is`.
On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 01:06 am, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:08:18 +1000, Steve D'Aprano
> declaimed the following:
>
>>For what its worth: from Python 3.5 (I think) onwards the error you get is
>>customized:
>>
>>py>
intuit the arbitrary rules?
Lists and tuples use the same lexicographic ordering as strings, except that
lists accept arbitrary object not just characters. So long as each pair of
objects in corresponding positions can be compared, the whole list can be
compared too.
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el, for a decade or more, and put up with thousands of
internet haters going on and on and on and on about "Python 3 is destroying
Python", year after year after year.
They were willing to do all this because they were looking at the long-term
health of the Python language, not just the immedi
it to
display anything except either "Python builtin" or "Interactive".
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big difference between the two, but it turned out that
there can be other byte-code differences.
So no, I don't believe we can say they are *completely* equivalent, since they
could compile to slightly different byte-code with slightly-different
performance characteristics. But I think we can s
application. Your end-users should never see an AssertionError.)
The bottom line is, if I saw
if not (thing > 0): raise AssertionError(...)
in a code review, I'd probably insist that either it be changed to use `assert`,
or the exception be changed to ValueError, whichever better exp
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 03:31 am, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 22, 2017 at 3:23 AM, Steve D'Aprano
> wrote:
>> That is definitely version-dependent, because I've just tried it and got
>> different byte-code in Python 2.7.
>>
>> py> import dis
>
hould have invented
their own language and used that instead.
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're right about the
second point.)
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written in Haskell.
Skulpt is written in Javascript.
Vyper was a really old implementation written in OCaml, apparently now lost and
no longer visible on the internet.
Some of these may been no longer supported, but the Big Four python
implementations are CPython, Jython, IronPython and PyPy.
> y="Z"
> swap(x,y)
> print (x,y) # "Z" and "10"
>
> If not, then it doesn't have reference passing as it is normally understood.
No it cannot, and does not. You can emulate it by adding a layer of redirection,
but that's i
or floats they're not the same.
py> not (NAN > 0)
True
py> NAN <= 0
False
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 05:01 pm, Bill wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 02:57 pm, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I find Python to be more more
>>> like Java, with regard to "passing objects by reference".
>> Which is not a surprise, si
way to emulate pass by reference which works in any scope: use a
list.
def swap(a, b):
a[0], b[0] = b[0], a[0]
a = [1]
b = [2]
swap(a, b)
assert a[0] == 2 and b[0] == 1
It's not proper pass by reference, and so will still fail Bart's test, because
you need to manually add an extr
On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 10:03 pm, alister wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 21:15:54 +1000, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 08:50 pm, alister wrote:
>>
>>>> The bottom line is, if I saw
>>>>
>>>> if not (thing > 0): raise
7;x', 'y', scope_of_x, scope_of_y) or any
other variant. That isn't call by reference semantics.
The whole point of call by reference semantics is that the *compiler*, not the
programmer, tracks the variables and their scopes. The programmer just
says "swap x and y", an
sk to eval strings that came from an untrusted user.
eval("__import__('os').system('echo """rm-rf /"""')")
Also, for what its worth, it's about ten times slower to run:
eval('(20 - 10) > 15')
than to simply run
(20
On Sat, 23 Sep 2017 03:01 pm, Bill wrote:
> if (20 - 10) > 15 :
> print("true")
> else:
> print("false");
print(20 - 10 > 15)
will do the job.
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On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 04:05 pm, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Steve D'Aprano writes:
>> Having to spend a few hours being paid to migrate code using "print x"
>> to "print(x)", or even a few months, is not a life-changing experience.
>
> Didn't someone
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 07:03 am, ROGER GRAYDON CHRISTMAN wrote:
> I usually do not encourage people to optimize correctness out of their code.
+1 quote of the week :-)
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
ht
er in other ways.
Assignment by reference would mean that name binding was an *alias* operation:
module.y = 1
x = module.y # x is an alias for the name "module.y"
x = 2 # binds 2 to module.y
assert module.y == 2
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ke C, call
by reference like Fortran, call by need like Haskell, or call by sharing like
Python.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Is there a way to log when the garbage collector finds and collects a reference
cycle?
I don't care about objects claimed by the reference counter, I only care about
cycles.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
ards to find out its name (or names). But in Python,
objects cannot do that: they have no way of telling what names they are known
by, or even how many names there are.
(There may be clever tricks you can play with the garbage collector or debugger,
but that's not part of Python-the-language,
t an implementation detail: site.py was refactored to keep long-lasting
objects separate from those that are ephemeral.
`builtins` is the official public name of the built-in namespace. In Python 2,
it was unfortunately called __builtin__.
Unfortunately there is also a __builtins__ name, which is a p
l requires that the actual argument passed to the var parameter be an
actual variable, not a constant or expression. Technically, it must be
a "L-value", something which can appear on the left hand side of an assignment
and therefore something that has an address.
--
Steve
“Cheer
nce variables,
to we can say that assignment:
a = b;
is the same as function call func(b) regardless of whether C++ is using by-value
or by-reference semantics.
So I believe that either "call by binding" or "call by assignment" could both
equally apply to any and all languages w
signment.
I don't know what you think "copy-over assignment" means, but none of
DuckDuckGo, Google, Bing or Yahoo finds that term except in your post.
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
average, in the builtins module, is the same function object as mean,
in the statistics module, what should average.__module__ say?
py> average.__module__
'statistics'
--
Steve
“Cheer up,” they said, “things could be worse.” So I cheered up, and sure
enough, things got worse.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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