Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 05:56 Michael Torrie, wrote: > > My mistake. I see now that it was something you forwarded to the list > from someone else. > > Doesn't change my reply, though. Whoever said it, it's not very > relevant. Who's "us" and what is it the Python gives them that Julia > will soon

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On 1/6/20 6:33 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > No, i did not write that, it's not Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote rather My mistake. I see now that it was something you forwarded to the list from someone else. Doesn't change my reply, though. Whoever said it, it's not very relevant. Who's

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

No, i did not write that, it's not Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote rather -- Forwarded message - From: *AAKASH JANA* Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:15 Subject: Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft To: Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Please forward it to aakashjana2...@gmail.com On Tue,

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On 1/6/20 10:24 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > Maybe but if you know or have heard of Julia the language. You will realise > its going to take over what python gives us. So i think there is urgent > need for upgrades to newer versions of python to make basic tasks on python > way quicker. N

Re: Python, Be Bold!

Yours, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer pythonmembers.club | github Mauritius On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:44 PM DL Neil via Python-list < python-list@python.org> wrote: > > I have not (been following the thread) - with all due apologies.

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 7/01/20 6:10 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 20:50 Rhodri James, wrote: No if you read the thread (please do it), that's the 4th time i'm saying it's a bad idea I have not (been following the thread) - with all due apologies. Podcast of possible interest: Episo

Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

-- Forwarded message - From: AAKASH JANA Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:15 Subject: Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft To: Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Maybe but if you know or have heard of Julia the language. You will realise its going to take over what python gives us. So i think there

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 20:50 Rhodri James, wrote: > On 01/01/2020 07:22, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > -- Self-updating Python distributions > > Microsoft have proved time and again that this is a really good thing if > you want to piss off your customer base. Let's not. > No if you read

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 21:01 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > Don't worry. It's trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, in a > platform-specific way, imitating a completely different execution > model, and ultimately is just reinventing what pip already does. You > can safely ignore it for plenty of

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 20:46 Rhodri James, wrote: > > I'm an embedded systems programmer. Congratulations, you have just > rendered your draft utterly irrelevant to me and those like me. > If you followed the previous thread there was some misunderstanding as to what do i mean by executable, sorry

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020, 18:37 o1bigtenor, wrote: > > Maybe I'm just slow but it really seems like what you are trying to > achieve is > a java like system. > > Wouldn't you find it easier to just use java rather than trying to remake > Python into Java? (It would be easier imo.) > It proposes to enh

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:47 AM Rhodri James wrote: > > On 06/01/2020 10:21, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > Before we begin, we'd like to define the term executable used in the context > > of this draft. It means an archive that is run by double-clicking. > > I'm an embedded systems programmer

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 01/01/2020 07:22, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: -- Self-updating Python distributions Microsoft have proved time and again that this is a really good thing if you want to piss off your customer base. Let's not. -- Distributions which notify about new releases Surely this is the OS's

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On 06/01/2020 10:21, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: Before we begin, we'd like to define the term executable used in the context of this draft. It means an archive that is run by double-clicking. I'm an embedded systems programmer. Congratulations, you have just rendered your draft utterly i

Re: Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:23 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > Note: Prepared a draft on the previous discussion, motivated by the vision > of > an era where the world swarms in Python apps. This draft is not a PEP, at > least > not yet. It's structure approaches a PEP but takes liberties as n

Python, Be Bold! - The Draft

Note: Prepared a draft on the previous discussion, motivated by the vision of an era where the world swarms in Python apps. This draft is not a PEP, at least not yet. It's structure approaches a PEP but takes liberties as necessary. It includes info deemed as essential. Thanking list members for th

Re: Error in python installation - was Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 1/5/20 7:59 AM, Kishor Soni wrote: > After proceeding installation, few minutes later such error appears > "0x80072f7d - unspecified error" > A log file is generated and attached herewith I prefer to keep communication on the list. Where did you download the installer from? Python.org or som

Re: Python, Be Bold!

ugh it was an old buddy. People are interested to build programs using new features available but that's according to me is bad practise as you always have people lagging behind. But on the other hand security fixes interpreter side might be a good upgrade inventive. The end user probably does

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 09:38, Chris Angelico wrote: > The wheel does not need to be reinvented. I see what you did there. -- Andrea -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 7:51 PM Andrea D'Amore wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 at 09:38, Chris Angelico wrote: > > > The wheel does not need to be reinvented. > > I see what you did there. > If you're talking about the pip-installable "wheel" format, then I *think* that it's a reference to that exp

Re: Python, Be Bold!

Greg Ewing : > You can pass a zip file with a .pyz extension to the python > interpreter and it will look for a __main__.py file and run > it. This discussion has been interesting, and I've now learned about zipapp. This is really nice and will likely be a favorite distribution format for Python a

Re: Python, Be Bold!

<< than some ever-changing feature wish list. >> ^^_ since the beginning it was .jar -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 06:49 Michael Torrie, wrote: > On 2020-01-03 5:44 p.m., Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > .jar provides more than just compression. It provides app info and has > > signing ability > > This is the first time you've mentioned signing ability in this very > long thread. At th

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 2020-01-03 5:44 p.m., Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > .jar provides more than just compression. It provides app info and has > signing ability This is the first time you've mentioned signing ability in this very long thread. At this point I have no idea what point you are even making anymore

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 05:23 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > I'm not sure what your proposal is here. Are you trying to make a > single-file executable, or are you trying to make an archive of Python > source code (like a jar), or are you trying something different again? > a .jar but it can be defined

Re: Python, Be Bold!

sure what your proposal is here. Are you trying to make a single-file executable, or are you trying to make an archive of Python source code (like a jar), or are you trying something different again? > Python, Be Bold captures the spirit of it should not be a shame to have the > interpreter/VM i

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 05:10 Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer, wrote: > > Also, you must have a dist for every different Os. > *for native execs > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

must have the interpreter on the machine but your program is lighter. 10 python programs does not mean inclung 10× the interpreter. The proposal also proposes enhancement to the interpreter to make it more non-programmer friendly. Also, you must have a dist for every different Os. Python, Be Bold

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020, 02:55 Greg Ewing, wrote: > On 3/01/20 3:31 pm, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > You can pass a zip file with a .pyz extension to the python > interpreter and it will look for a __main__.py file and run > it. > > That seems to give you all the functionality of a jar -- > inc

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 3/01/20 3:31 pm, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: But, this proposal is not about native executables. It's about a .jar like executable. You can pass a zip file with a .pyz extension to the python interpreter and it will look for a __main__.py file and run it. That seems to give you all th

Re: Python, Be Bold!

> On 3 Jan 2020, at 02:31, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > > > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 02:50 Barry Scott, > wrote: > Expect for trivial programs you cannot distribute a single file python exe > for windows. > > You can, PyInstaller does it. You can have f

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 06:33 Bob van der Poel, wrote: > Oh, now we get the rational. No thank you! Enough of the world is hidden > away as it is. > Zipapp was introduced for a reason, .jar for a reason. This proposal also adds in the ability of the interpreter to notify of new Python releases. > -

Re: Python, Be Bold!

Oh, now we get the rational. No thank you! Enough of the world is hidden away as it is. On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 7:22 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > One of the advantages of single "executable"s is the abstraction of > details. You don't want users to see what you incl

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 02:50 Barry Scott, wrote: > Expect for trivial programs you cannot distribute a single file python exe > for windows. > You can, PyInstaller does it. You can have folder-based or single file apps As you found zipapp is not a solution. > Zipapp is a good candidate. Proposin

Re: Python, Be Bold!

One of the advantages of single "executable"s is the abstraction of details. You don't want users to see what you included. It's an attempt at hiding away details for aesthetic purposes. The second reason is compression. You get a lighter program. The third reason is to be as reverse-engineer resis

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 02:49 Grant Edwards, wrote: > > Definitely. > > Single file executables aren't really "a thing" on Windows. > This proposal is about a .jar like file executable, not native executables > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:43 Michael Torrie, wrote: > On 1/2/20 2:11 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > But single file are better suited for distribution. > > Maybe. Most windows applications are distributed with installers. I've > made several bundles over the years with Nullsoft's installe

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:43 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > Wait, so as well as the single file, you ALSO need a Python > interpreter? Then what's the point? Why not just distribute a .py > file? > Well let's say a Flask, Django or PyQt app, a single file is not really feasible. > -- https://mail.pyt

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 03:35 mm0fmf, wrote: > On 02/01/2020 09:41, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > i wonder who uses windows > > > > I do. The man pays me well to write software for Windows and Linux and I > don't care which . It's just an OS, write the code to do what the spec > says. Not a dif

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 03:25 Greg Ewing, wrote: > It looks like what the OP is after already exists: > > https://docs.python.org/3/library/zipapp.html > > "This module provides tools to manage the creation of zip files > containing Python code, which can be executed directly by the Python > interpre

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 02/01/2020 09:41, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: i wonder who uses windows I do. The man pays me well to write software for Windows and Linux and I don't care which . It's just an OS, write the code to do what the spec says. Not a difficult concept really. apt-get works fine for me on

Re: Python, Be Bold!

It looks like what the OP is after already exists: https://docs.python.org/3/library/zipapp.html "This module provides tools to manage the creation of zip files containing Python code, which can be executed directly by the Python interpreter." -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

> On 2 Jan 2020, at 21:17, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:05 Chris Angelico, wrote: > >> >> They are still FAR better than trying to create a single bloated >> executable that contains everything and magically knows how and when >> to update itself. >> > > P

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 2020-01-02, Michael Torrie wrote: > On 1/2/20 2:11 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: >> But single file are better suited for distribution. > > Maybe. Most windows applications are distributed with installers. Definitely. Single file executables aren't really "a thing" on Windows. > [...]

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:17 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:05 Chris Angelico, wrote: >> >> >> They are still FAR better than trying to create a single bloated >> executable that contains everything and magically knows how and when >> to update itself. > > > Prop

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 1/2/20 2:11 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > But single file are better suited for distribution. Maybe. Most windows applications are distributed with installers. I've made several bundles over the years with Nullsoft's installer builder. That's how commercial companies, including those

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:05 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > They are still FAR better than trying to create a single bloated > executable that contains everything and magically knows how and when > to update itself. > Proposing to freeze things. You distribute a version of the program. The single file

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 01:01 Michael Torrie, wrote: > > But a jar file is not executable on Windows and never has been. Maybe it can > be opened with a file association linking it to a Java runtime > executable. > That's it. See UMLet's distribution mode for example As Chris said with file

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 00:58 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > I linked you to a single file executable of mine. It makes use of... > oh hey, the system package manager. See? It works. > I don't understand this one > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:58 AM Michael Torrie wrote: > > On 1/2/20 1:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > > Using a package manager means you have ONE copy of the Python > > interpreter, and all your scripts depend on it. If you update that > > interpreter, ALL scripts benefit from the update. This is a

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 1/2/20 1:42 PM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > I am not proposing native executables, but a .jar like executable. The term > executable refers to one click run. But a jar file is not executable on Windows and never has been. You can't go to the cmd.exe window and type "myprogram.jar." Mayb

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:54 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: >> >> Then we already have this. On Windows, set your file associations >> appropriately. On Unix-like platforms, have a shebang at the start, >> and chmod it +x. > > > Not proposing only executable but single file executable. > I lin

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 1/2/20 1:33 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > Using a package manager means you have ONE copy of the Python > interpreter, and all your scripts depend on it. If you update that > interpreter, ALL scripts benefit from the update. This is a solved > problem. Except that it's not actually a solved probl

Re: Python, Be Bold!

> > Then we already have this. On Windows, set your file associations > appropriately. On Unix-like platforms, have a shebang at the start, > and chmod it +x. > Not proposing only executable but single file executable. > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:42 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 00:33 Chris Angelico, wrote: >> >> A jar is just an archive of Java class files. It's approximately >> equivalent to a zip file of .pyc files. > > > Exactly the idea, that's why i said zipapp might be a goo

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 00:33 Chris Angelico, wrote: > A jar is just an archive of Java class files. It's approximately > equivalent to a zip file of .pyc files. > Exactly the idea, that's why i said zipapp might be a good candidate No, but there are package managers for Windows and Mac too. (I don

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 7:22 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 00:14 Chris Angelico, wrote: >> >> >> What do you mean by "Python-specific executable"? > > > a Python equivalent of .jar A jar is just an archive of Java class files. It's approximately equivalent to a zip fi

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020, 00:14 Chris Angelico, wrote: > > What do you mean by "Python-specific executable"? > a Python equivalent of .jar > Your Python code can go anywhere if you package it up in, say, a .deb > or .rpm, Not everybody uses Linux I > don't understand how "run on any device" relat

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 6:39 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > Having a Python-specific executable allows you to go to whatever length you > desire to make project bundling an easy task. The other effort is to get > your interpreter/VM running on as many hardwares as possible. This includes > th

Re: Python, Be Bold!

Coincidentally, one day before i posted this approach, a user posted on Idle-dev: [Idle-dev] Wishlist: Make executables + startup option which proposes the idea of adding an option to generate a single executable from Idle. It reflects the profound desire of the community to distribute their apps

Re: Python, Be Bold!

Oh auto-3rd party modules is a mess. Suggesting updating only the interpreter. We can have a pre-scan which warns the user that upgrading will make the following packages no longer compatible. But that's one aim of venvs i think, is to confine packages to projects, not to the interpreter. No java

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On 1/2/20 2:41 AM, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > i wonder who uses windows If this kind of thing is important to a user , what you propose would probably be the responsibility of the entity that is producing a Python distribution, such as Anaconda. Usually in such cases these distributions ar

Re: Python, Be Bold!

i wonder who uses windows On Thu, 2 Jan 2020, 12:38 Chris Angelico, wrote: > On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:20 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > wrote: > > > > if not self-updating, at least the ability to update > > > > That's a package manager's job. > > $ sudo apt update > $ sudo apt upgrade > > Job d

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:20 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > if not self-updating, at least the ability to update > That's a package manager's job. $ sudo apt update $ sudo apt upgrade Job done. The wheel does not need to be reinvented. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo

Re: Python, Be Bold!

if not self-updating, at least the ability to update Yours, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer pythonmembers.club | github Mauritius -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python, Be Bold!

On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 1:24 AM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > Greetings list, > > I wanted to make some suggestion about the Python interpreter but since > it's more high-level, i decided to post it here instead of python-ideas. > > Well, concerning distributing Python apps, a natural way is

Python, Be Bold!

Greetings list, I wanted to make some suggestion about the Python interpreter but since it's more high-level, i decided to post it here instead of python-ideas. Well, concerning distributing Python apps, a natural way is to compile to native executables. But, another way is to have a python-speci