Rhodri James :
> On 25/09/17 20:40, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> A pointer is something that points to a data object.
>
> In that case you are using "pointer" in such an informal sense that
> making deductions from it is unlikely to be successful.
Propose a name for the concept. Candidates so far: "p
On 25/09/17 21:00, Tim Golden wrote:
(Slight sigh). Can I step in as a list owner and ask the people who are
so very fond of debating this topic again and again: please let it drop.
But, but... someone on the internet is wrong!
https://www.facebook.com/playingrapunzel/videos/10153716804864491/
On 25/09/17 20:40, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Rhodri James :
On 25/09/17 15:26, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
That's not what I said. I said all expressions *evaluate to* pointers.
This may well be true in particular implementations, but it is an
implementation detail so Chris' point still stands. Anothe
Chris Angelico :
> I've explained Python's (or JavaScript's, since they're the same)
> object model to a number of novice programmers without any
> difficulties, without talking about pointers or invisible values or
> any of that junk. There are just two things to explain: the concept of
> names r
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:25 PM, Gregory Ewing
wrote:
> Neil Cerutti wrote:
>>
>> The quest to find a succinct way to categorize Python's argument
>> passing for non-Python programmers strikes me as a sincere effort
>> to to simplify something that just isn't simple.
>
>
> I don't see how it's use
Neil Cerutti wrote:
The quest to find a succinct way to categorize Python's argument
passing for non-Python programmers strikes me as a sincere effort
to to simplify something that just isn't simple.
I don't see how it's useful to do that in the first place.
Under what circumstances would you f
Tim Golden wrote:
On 25/09/2017 20:40, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Rhodri James :
On 25/09/17 15:26, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
That's not what I said. I said all expressions *evaluate to* pointers.
This may well be true in particular implementations, but it is an
implementation detail so Chris' point
Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Chris Angelico :
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Sorry, that was my bad in the terminology. But where do you get that
all Python expressions evaluate to pointers?
What do they evaluate to if
On 2017-09-25, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
> So I believe that either "call by binding" or "call by
> assignment" could both equally apply to any and all languages
> with function parameters, regardless of implementation or the
> language's defined semantics.
I disagree on C++ where there's a keen diff
Chris Angelico :
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Chris Angelico :
>>> You need *some* support for your assertion that there are pointers,
>>
>> What would convince you?
>
> Evidence, or a statement from the documentation.
I mean, what piece of Python code could decide
On 25/09/2017 20:40, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Rhodri James :
On 25/09/17 15:26, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
That's not what I said. I said all expressions *evaluate to* pointers.
This may well be true in particular implementations, but it is an
implementation detail so Chris' point still stands. Anot
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:36 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico :
>> You need *some* support for your assertion that there are pointers,
>
> What would convince you?
Evidence, or a statement from the documentation.
ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Rhodri James :
> On 25/09/17 15:26, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> That's not what I said. I said all expressions *evaluate to* pointers.
>
> This may well be true in particular implementations, but it is an
> implementation detail so Chris' point still stands. Another
> implementation could evaluate ex
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 5:35 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico :
>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Sorry, that was my bad in the terminology. But where do you get that
>> all Python expressions evaluate to pointers?
>
> What do they evaluate to if not pointe
Chris Angelico :
> You need *some* support for your assertion that there are pointers,
What would convince you?
Marko
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Chris Angelico :
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Sorry, that was my bad in the terminology. But where do you get that
> all Python expressions evaluate to pointers?
What do they evaluate to if not pointers? Anton's "identities" would
work, too. "Address" would do, as
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 4:30 AM, Antoon Pardon
wrote:
> On 25-09-17 20:01, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Antoon Pardon
>> wrote:
>>> On 25-09-17 19:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
If by "identity" you mean the integer values returned by id(), then
nope, you're stil
On 25-09-17 20:01, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Antoon Pardon
> wrote:
>> On 25-09-17 19:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> If by "identity" you mean the integer values returned by id(), then
>>> nope, you're still wrong - there is no mapping from identities to
>>> values. T
On 25/09/17 15:26, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Chris Angelico :
On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
In Python, all expressions evaluate pointers.
And that's an assertion that isn't backed by anything in the Python
specification. Where do you get that all Python expressions are
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Antoon Pardon
wrote:
> On 25-09-17 19:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> If by "identity" you mean the integer values returned by id(), then
>> nope, you're still wrong - there is no mapping from identities to
>> values. There is a mapping from name to object/value, and
I would claim that these two paragraphs do not agree.
What is stored in the variable in Pascal?
In declared variables and value parameters, the value itself.
Let's just temporarily stipulate that for reference parameters
and pointer variables actually store a pointer to the object.
Where is it r
On 25-09-17 19:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Antoon Pardon
> wrote:
>> On 25-09-17 16:29, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Antoon Pardon :
>>>
Op 25-09-17 om 15:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
> No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in the abstract sense, both in
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:26 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico :
>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> In Python, all expressions evaluate pointers.
>>
>> And that's an assertion that isn't backed by anything in the Python
>> specification. Where do you get tha
On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Antoon Pardon
wrote:
> On 25-09-17 16:29, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Antoon Pardon :
>>
>>> Op 25-09-17 om 15:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in the abstract sense, both in
case of Python and Pascal. Neither language gives
On 25-09-17 16:29, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> Op 25-09-17 om 15:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>>> No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in the abstract sense, both in
>>> case of Python and Pascal. Neither language gives any hint as to the
>>> physical nature of the pointer.
>>
>>
Chris Angelico :
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> In Python, all expressions evaluate pointers.
>
> And that's an assertion that isn't backed by anything in the Python
> specification. Where do you get that all Python expressions are
> pointers?
That's not what I said.
Antoon Pardon :
> Op 25-09-17 om 15:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>> No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in the abstract sense, both in
>> case of Python and Pascal. Neither language gives any hint as to the
>> physical nature of the pointer.
>
> Yes you are. Python doesn't have pointers at the l
On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> the semantics of an assignment depends on the language
>
> I've only seen one kind of assignment in the general-purpose programming
> languages I know, maybe with the exception of Prolog and Rust.
>
> So the assignment i
Op 25-09-17 om 15:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> Op 25-09-17 om 14:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>>> Python only operates with pointers. You can operate with pointers in
>>> Pascal as well.
>> You are talking about implementation details.
> No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in
Antoon Pardon :
> Op 25-09-17 om 14:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>> Python only operates with pointers. You can operate with pointers in
>> Pascal as well.
>
> You are talking about implementation details.
No, I'm not. I'm talking about pointers in the abstract sense, both in
case of Python and Pas
Op 25-09-17 om 14:16 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> Op 25-09-17 om 13:32 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>>> In Python, assignment "mutates the target" as well. It's only that in
>>> Python, the target is always a pointer.
>> Fine if you want to word it like that, the assignments in Pascal
Antoon Pardon :
> Op 25-09-17 om 13:32 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>> In Python, assignment "mutates the target" as well. It's only that in
>> Python, the target is always a pointer.
>
> Fine if you want to word it like that, the assignments in Pascal and
> Python are still sufficiently different.
>
>
Op 25-09-17 om 13:32 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> Op 25-09-17 om 11:41 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>>> Antoon Pardon :
>>>
the semantics of an assignment depends on the language
>>> I've only seen one kind of assignment in the general-purpose
>>> programming languages I know, may
Antoon Pardon :
> Op 25-09-17 om 11:41 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
>> Antoon Pardon :
>>
>>> the semantics of an assignment depends on the language
>> I've only seen one kind of assignment in the general-purpose
>> programming languages I know, maybe with the exception of Prolog and
>> Rust.
>
> I dis
Op 25-09-17 om 11:41 schreef Marko Rauhamaa:
> Antoon Pardon :
>
>> the semantics of an assignment depends on the language
> I've only seen one kind of assignment in the general-purpose programming
> languages I know, maybe with the exception of Prolog and Rust.
I disagree. In languages like Pasca
Antoon Pardon :
> the semantics of an assignment depends on the language
I've only seen one kind of assignment in the general-purpose programming
languages I know, maybe with the exception of Prolog and Rust.
So the assignment is the same everywhere, only the evaluation model
varies. In classic
Op 25-09-17 om 00:39 schreef Gregory Ewing:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> "Binding" itself tends to be Python specific terminology -- in
>> that it
>> is the parameter /name/ that gets bound/attached to the argument
>> /object/.
>> It is the same method as used in any Python "assignment" statem
Steve D'Aprano wrote:
I think that suffers from the same problem as "call by binding" -- assignment is
too general a word.
If you're learning a new language, you're almost certainly
going to learn how assignment works in that language before
you get as far as worrying about parameter passing. I
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
Though "assignment" differs so much between languages
That's the point of the term -- it's the same as whatever
assignment does in the language concerned.
This is true of *every* language I know of that uses the
term "call by value" in its official documentatio
On 09/24/2017 09:56 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> "Binding" itself tends to be Python specific terminology
Not so. How it's used in Python terminology is fairly closely aligned
with how the word was used in my programming language theory class at
uni, where it was defined in mathematical t
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 08:39 am, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> "Binding" itself tends to be Python specific terminology -- in that it
"Binding" is certainly not Python-specific:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_binding
and here's an example of the term in use:
https://www.g
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 01:56 am, bartc wrote:
>> The point I am making is that we could describe just about any and all
>> languages with functions "call by binding", whether they are call by value
>> like C, call by reference like Fortran, call by need like Haskell, or call by
>> sharing like Python
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
"Binding" itself tends to be Python specific terminology -- in that it
is the parameter /name/ that gets bound/attached to the argument /object/.
It is the same method as used in any Python "assignment" statement,
Which is why I think "call by assignment" would
On 24/09/2017 15:49, Steve D'Aprano wrote:
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:35 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
WRT to assertions about Python, I try to base them on the
"The Python Language Reference, Release 3.6.0" (PRL).
So, WRT to parameter passing, I would use this part of the PRL:
»The follo
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 12:35 am, Stefan Ram wrote:
> WRT to assertions about Python, I try to base them on the
> "The Python Language Reference, Release 3.6.0" (PRL).
>
> So, WRT to parameter passing, I would use this part of the PRL:
>
> »The following constructs bind names: formal par
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