success.
But I suspect this is exactly what you mean by “principles that work well in
most of Python’s libraries”. Haskell doesn’t make you cabal install a hackage
to get first. And likewise for Clojure, F#, Scala, etc. (Hell, when you npm
install underscorejs, you don’t have to also go in
if it were called "one" instead of "first"?
I’d expect one to be “like first, but raise if there are two or more elements”,
because that’s what it means in a number of functional languages and database
libraries, and more-itertools.
______
n’t think code that does that would be wrong or bad;
using EAFP instead of LBYL is usually considered a good thing in Python.
But also, most of the time, even when you aren’t testing for the error, you’re
relying on it. The pairs and process functions above are only correct because
of that T
o, what else could you do? Make __setattr__ check the stack and see if it’s
being called from type(self).__post_init__? Add an extra hidden attribute to
every instance just to track whether you’re inside __post_init__ so __setattr__
can check it?
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else could you do? Make __setattr__ check the stack and see if it’s
>> being
>> called from type(self).__post_init__?
> Yes I think this is one possibility.
I guess, but not a good one. Stack inspection is generally considered a huge
code smell. For example, whenever someone on t
On Dec 12, 2019, at 05:29, Siddharth Prajosh wrote:
>
> Python slicing looks really weird. How do I explain s=list(range(100));
> s[10:20] gives you a part of the list.
Well, first you have to explain what “slicing” means, and that for lists it
returns a new copy of the sub-list,
re probably better off explicitly using index
arrays and bool arrays as your indexes, as numpy does.
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a[1], and this case wouldn’t even have that
potential for confusion.
There are presumably historical reasons why it turned out this way, but if you
were designing a new language that had tuple and slice and ellipsis indexing
like current Python, would you expe
es into
> itertools.)
The docs for more_itertools.first say it’s equivalent to next of iter, which
makes the behavior even more obvious to anyone who understands iteration in
Python, even if they’ve never used itertools before.
_______
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at,
or anything else relevant) just because you changed subscripting.
So t would be the first argument, the same as always. If you want 1 to be the
first argument, you have to write MyWeirdTuple(*t).
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cond one, though, on reflection that would make perfect sense. Making
the parser handling one or more colons instead of one or two colons shouldn’t
be a problem. And it’s probably only because of historical reasons (Python used
to have __getitem__(a) for [a] and __getslice__(a,b) for [a:b], and the
ents.
You can say all zero of the dimensions are any number you like, and you get
that number to the zeroth power elements, which is always 1.
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On Dec 12, 2019, at 20:51, Tim Peters wrote:
>
> BTW, you can go a long way in Python without knowing anything about `iter()`
> or `next()`. But not without mastering `for` loops. That's why I prefer to
> say that, for ordinary cases,
>
> a = first(it)
>
etely understandable to people who
>> don’t
>> know about iter, how can we put it in itertools, a module whose docs start
>> off
>> with a nice friendly introduction about the building blocks of an algebra for
>> iterators that you can compose into powerful tools?
learn about
iterators. There are certainly a lot of StackOverflow dups asking why `for line
in file:` gives them no lines when just 10 lines earlier the same file had 20
lines.
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ght be useful; maybe it’s even come
up for me a few times. But if the motivating examples are cases where it would
make the code less readable rather than more, that’s not a good sign.
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t it
Looking at my own REPL history and pile of throwaway scripts, dicts actually
seem to make up a lot of my own uses of more_itertools.first.
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r is.
Does GNU or BSD mv provide an option for what you want?
What’s your use case for wanting to do this?
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ust have some case where you really
wanted this, that motivated you to propose it?
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lly reads the
same. A fallthrough says “tail call does this stuff, and then does the stuff
from the next (call) case”. An orif says “call, or also tail call which did
some other stuff, does this stuff.” It seems backward to think of it that way.
_______
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` If
> this line is at the top of the file, then a TypeError is thrown on any
> method/function that uses type hints in the current file if the passed arg or
> return value is the wrong type.
PHP’s feature doesn’t really make sense for Python.
First, PHP is a weakly typed language; Pyt
On Dec 25, 2019, at 14:57, python-ideas--- via Python-ideas
wrote:
First, as a side note, you seem to have configured your python-ideas-posting
address with the name “python-ideas” rather than with a name that can be used
to distinguish you from other people. This will make conversations
erent from addition), that you can't multiply a list
> by an integer, that you can't multiply a string by an integer, that
> you can't divide a string by a string, etc, etc, etc.
Well, they are wrong :D
They want funny and lazy operators? Suggest them numpy. numpy transform P
xt, or just that you don't see value in it?
> If you're just presenting your opinion, then present it as an opinion,
> not as a scoffing dismissal.
Angelico, I can change my mind if you will be able to give me at least one
practical example where `sorted(sets)` is really useful
So why only mean and not median, that's better for statistics? :D
Seriously, if you want it builtin, add it to PYTHONSTARTUP:
https://docs.python.org/3/using/cmdline.html#envvar-PYTHONSTARTUP
from statistics import mean
___
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Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> > from statistics import mean
> > sum([1e16,1,1])/3 == 1e16/3# surprise!
> > True
> > mean([1e16,1,1]) == 1e16/3
> > False
> > Regards,
Python 3.9.0a0 (heads/master-dirty:d8ca2354ed, Oct 30 2019, 20:25:01)
[GCC 9.2.1 201909
.and?
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e of the two central
values is NaN, the other value is returned. The function returns NaN
only if both are NaNs.
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> On Dec 26, 2019, at 04:15, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> Mathematically,
Whenever someone tries to argue that “Mathematically, this doesn’t make sense”
it ends up isomorphic to an argument that they really would have enjoyed one
more semester of math classes as an u
’t need anything else
from stats (or numpy). Whatever. But you have to make that argument; otherwise,
stats.mean seems like the right place for it, just like functools.partial and
math.sin.
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T
easily just from math itself.
Or, once you can get infinite values, you can easily get nan values with just
basic arithmetic:
>>> 1e1000 - 1e1000
nan
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ways spell the
> operation <.
Nope.
Usually, you define the operation <=. And posets requires that
set1 <= set1 == True
and this is true. Unluckily, sort operations in Python requires and uses
**only** `__lt__()`. And
set1 < set1 == False
So, **in Python**, sorting a list of se
the
biased median_high() and median_low() functions of `statistics`.
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ed to intentionally look like < well over a
century before Python, but for the sake of accuracy: Gergonne was using C (from
the French or Latin word for containment) for superset as early as 1817. But
most people didn’t follow him, and in fact < and > was the most popular
spelling
lice the NaNs away
more easily, if (s)he wants :)
I think Java do the things this way, because I tested `Collections.sort()` with
a List and it puts all NaNs at the end of the list.
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could at least
separate this discussion in a separate thread. Can you, please?
Thanks in advance.
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> On Dec 26, 2019, at 11:32, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert wrote:
>>> the operator is ⊂. "<" operator is used for
>>> comparison, and it's vital for sorting.
>> Yes. It’s the defining operation for the partial
Andrew Barnert wrote:
> I didn’t want to get into that, because I assumed you weren’t going to argue
> that
> <= makes sense for sets but < doesn’t
So you're telling about **strict** partial ordering. I can spend thousand of
words, but I think Python can speak for me:
`
David Mertz wrote:
> Here is an implementation that:
> A. Only relies on '<'
Well, no. There's an `==` check.
Can you please read this 2 posts of mine?
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/7255SH6LSC266HAGI4SRJGV4JTUMMI4J/
https://mail.
On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:19, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
wrote:
>
> IMHO, another sorted function, slower than it, should be added.
You can very easily just write a key function that does this for you. In fact,
you can write different key functions for different variations.
For examp
On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:36, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 12/26/19 2:10 PM, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 10:58, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> Note, that NaN values are somewhat rare in most programs, I think they can
>>> only come ab
On Dec 26, 2019, at 14:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 9:07 AM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>>
>> You can very easily just write a key function that does this for you. In
>> fact, you can write different key functions for diffe
a comparison between two floats. So they take the most practical
solution: return false.
But Python and high level languages have another option: raise an exception.
And this is IMHO the most sane solution, because you **can't** compare NaNs.
Think about a list with a NaN inside. Ok, now the s
Andrew Barnert wrote:
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:19, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
> [email protected] wrote:
> you can get the behavior of your algorithm below:
> @functools.cmp_to_key
> def flip_incomparables_key(a, b):
> if a < b: return -1
> if b <
> On Dec 26, 2019, at 14:46, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> David Mertz wrote:
>> NaN is an IEEE-854 value, everything you
>> mention is precisely identical of floats.
>> Is your argument that we need to stop using the '<' operator f
On Dec 26, 2019, at 15:27, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert wrote:
>> On Dec 26, 2019, at 12:19, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> you can get the behavior of your algorithm below:
>> @functools.cmp_to_key
&
= float("nan")
print(sorted([x, 6, -10, float("-inf"), 1981, 8, y, float("+inf"), 19, 23],
key=iliadSort))
```
result:
```
[-inf, -10, 6, 8, 19, 23, 1981, inf, nan, nan]
```
but works only for NaNs and requires also "=="... 0_____o
____
Andrew Barnert wrote:
> if you’re going to be a pedant, the floats in
> whatever Python you’re using right now are probably 854/754-1985 doubles, not
> 754-2019
> binary64s.
Mr. Andrew Barnet,
if pedant means adhere to the standard, yes, I'm a pedant.
> > This is because
iliadSort(a, b):
if a < b:
res = -1
elif not b == b:
res = -1
else:
res = 0
return res
and NaNs are moved at the end of the list.
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same for entries(). It should be:
1. a SequenceEntriesView
2. a generator that yields the tuples (index, value)
What do you think about?
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If the NaNs are not really member of your population, it's ok.
On the contrary, if you use my median function with the key function I posted
before, you have not this problem. The iterable is sorted well and you get the
real median.
_______
Pyth
Oh my... Mertz, listen to me, you don't need a parameter. You only need a key
function to pass to `sorted()`
If you use this key function:
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/[email protected]/message/M3DEOZLA63Z5OIF6H6ZCEXK36GQMLVVA/
in my median() function:
https://mail.pytho
ue to use the iterable to access the rest of
the iterable. `first()` creates an iterator, uses it and throw it away. What a
waste! Greta Thunberg is very angry with you all :D
So 200 posts for one line less? I really don't catch the point.
_______
Py
. Non-experts probably does not even know what to pass to that
parameter. Non-experts can also read the docs, you know?!?
Anyway, I'm not here to convince you of anything. Continue to use Pandas, the
most slow module in the history of Python, that my company asked to me to
remove to all
Steven, can you please remember me what operations can return NaN? I remember
for example 0/0 and +Infinity - +Infinity.
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https
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 02:22:48AM -, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas wrote:
> > It's very common to see:
> > for i, x in enumerate(sequence):
> > [...]
> >
> > Yes, that is very common, except that "sequence" ca
Excuse me Mr. Fine, can't you simply do `d2.update(c2)`???
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Me
Eric Fahlgren wrote:
> You apparently did not read the posts, because the point was whether it
> raises or returns a default value, not whether it saves one line or ten.
You apparently don't know Python:
```
next(iterator) # raises an exception if no more elements
next(iterator
That’s also a great argument that it should be added to the re module, so
people don’t have to try to figure out how to port C code to Python and then
test the hell out of it just to get something that’s only missing in the first
place for historical/naming reasons.
_____
suite with wide
coverage that you could adapt to compare list(findalliter) vs. findall or
something?
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es, not a fully general one.
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On Dec 28, 2019, at 23:29, Steve Barnes wrote:
>
>
> From: Andrew Barnert
> Sent: 28 December 2019 20:21
> To: Steve Barnes
> Cc: Christopher Barker ; [email protected]; python-ideas
>
> Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Re: Testing for NANs [was Re: Fix
> statistics
On Dec 29, 2019, at 04:34, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Sat, Dec 28, 2019 at 11:58:35PM -0800, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>> No it won’t, unless you assume here that no possible non-numeric types
>> could ever have non-self-equal values. Which is
omes true, notify a condition variable…). I think I wrote
a facetious post on my old Stupid Python Ideas blog on all the control flow
statements Python is “missing” and included a when for this purpose.
I don’t think the advantage is anywhere near worth the cost. Being explicit
about whic
On Dec 29, 2019, at 12:52, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 12/29/19 3:13 PM, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 2019, at 10:57, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 10:45 PM Antoine Rozo >>>
t is for the sake of making sense of computer
programs.
(In the case of uint16, that actually does form a useful structure on its own
if you consider them as Z/65536Z, but maybe it’s still worth considering them
as an approximation of N instead.)
___
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On Dec 29, 2019, at 15:19, David Mertz wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019, 5:20 PM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> But it is, out of all of the possible magma-over-magma structures on those
>> values, the one that most closely approximates—in a well-defined an
the first NaN that way than by
doing an extra pass, if it’s simpler and slightly faster for the
non-exceptional case?
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l kinds
of places.
Likewise, it’s even easier to write ignore-nan yourself than to write the DSU
yourself:
median = statistics.median(x for x in xs if not x.isnan())
… and yet this whole proposal is still useful, isn’t it?
So, why isn’t adding a key parameter (as well as an on_nan that take
at’s a lot less obvious and a lot more
useful.
And the same is true for IEEE binary64. You can say they’re not numbers, or
that they are, or that some of them are and some of them aren’t, but they’re
not the rationals (or the reals or the affinely extended reals or a subalgebra
of any of the a
actually needs a key function because you can
>> always decorate-sort-undecorate. And yet, key functions are useful in all
>> kinds of places.
>
>
> It's a balance, I think. `key_fn=` feels much too "heavy" for users of
> statistics module.
Key functions are
hich one of those intuitions was
wrong? Neither; they’re both right, and therefore we just found a new way to
distinguish between two useful classes of “number” structures. We’re farther
from ever from knowing which things are “really numbers”, but who cares?
_______
pecify it explicitly.)
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7;ve got "learned up" about this three times now :-). Given we
> cannot control those bit patterns from Python, I'm a bit "meh"... but I get
> the rule (yeah, yeah, struct module)
That’s either me or AT&T being slow; either way, apologies.
>> The 95%
harder to debug your
code when you can’t inspect the values, but on the plus side you do feel really
clever for a few seconds when you first get it working. :)
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On Dec 29, 2019, at 23:50, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 06:23:03PM -0800, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>> Likewise, it’s even easier to write ignore-nan yourself than to write the
>> DSU yourself:
>>
>>median
it explicitly.)
>
> But it DOESN'T make all positive NaNs equivalent, as they do not compare
> 'equal'. Neither is less than the other, but they don't compare equal. If you
> use a sort function (not the one that Python currently uses) that uses an
> equalit
> On Dec 30, 2019, at 08:55, David Mertz wrote:
>> Presumably the end user (unlike the statistics module) knows what data they
>> have.
>
> No, Steven is right here. In Python we might very sensibly mix numeric
> datatypes.
The statistics module explicitly doesn’t
> On Dec 30, 2019, at 14:05, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 12/30/19 4:22 PM, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>> On Dec 30, 2019, at 06:50, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 12/30/19 12:06 AM, Andrew Barnert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 2019, at 20
2 elements before sorting, and, given IGNORE (and POISON?) they
probably need to instead check for that after the filter-and-sort step.
(Presumably asking for the xtile of [nan, nan, nan] with IGNORE is an error,
not nan.)
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by the exponent times the sign, which handles
both -0<0 and more vs. less subnormal representations of equal finite values.
While we’re at it, IIRC, it specifically mandates a<=b rather than a___
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To u
of anything obvious that makes sense.
> To do this any and all could make a specially tagged tupl which interacts
> with operators like 'in' in a special way where it applies each of its
> members and or/ands the results.
>
> It may even be possible to do this with the ex
o translate
that repeated check to a set operation.
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t;
> if foobar is foo or bar or baz:
> pass
>
> now the recommended syntax translate to this: (I think so)
>
> if foo (IS NOT '0' or None or empty) or bar (IS NOT '0' or None or empty) or
> baz in foobar
I’m not sure what this translation is supposed
On Dec 31, 2019, at 09:43, Soni L. wrote:
>
> I would like this code to work, but currently python ignores
> __subclasscheck__ in many places where it checks for subclasses:
>
> class MM(type):
> def __subclasscheck__(self, subclass):
> return issu
On Dec 31, 2019, at 11:02, Soni L. wrote:
>
>
>> On 2019-12-31 3:56 p.m., Andrew Barnert wrote:
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 09:43, Soni L. wrote:
>> > > I would like this code to work, but currently python ignores
>> > > __subclasscheck__ in
On Dec 31, 2019, at 11:50, MRAB wrote:
>
> On 2019-12-31 17:49, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 08:03, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> IF I were to change the syntax ( which I don't propose), I believe the
>>> construct like f
Every so often, someone suggests that Python should have a pattern matching
case statement like Scala, C#, Swift, Haskell, etc. Or they just suggest that
“Python needs algebraic data types” but end up concluding that the biggest part
Python is missing is not the types themselves, but a
case SMS(number, message) =>
notify(s"You got an SMS from $number! Message: $message")
case VoiceRecording(name, link) =>
notify(s"You received a Voice Recording from $name! Click the
link to hear it: $link")
}
}
Here it i
On Dec 31, 2019, at 14:58, Soni L. wrote:
>
>
>> On 2019-12-31 7:28 p.m., Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>
>> The second is an “if try” statement, which tries an expression and runs the
>> body if that doesn’t raise (instead of if it’s truthy), but j
On Dec 31, 2019, at 15:52, Greg Ewing wrote:
>
> On 1/01/20 11:28 am, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>
>> The first is to extend unpacking assignment to target-or-expression lists.
>> Like this:
>>x, 0, z = vec
>> But
>> it doesn’t bind anyt
On Dec 31, 2019, at 17:54, David Mertz wrote:
>
>
>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 8:23 PM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> wrote:
>
>> > K = 42
>> > x, K, z = vec
>> Yes. I’m surveying the way other languages deal with this to try to figure
&
rejected on that basis. (Which I think is a serious possibility. Something
about if-try still smells weird to me in a way I haven’t figured out yet.)
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you could leverage
if/elif chains (essentially the same way Python covers 90% of what C switch can
do without needing a new structure) and tuple unpacking. Now it seems much more
feasible. (Also, dataclass is close enough to a “case class”—and provides a
model for building them manually—that the pr
>> On Jan 1, 2020, at 04:21, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 05:18:59PM -0800, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> wrote:
>>
>> Some languages use special syntax to mark either values or targets:
>> let x, K, let z = vec
>
On Jan 1, 2020, at 07:03, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 02:28:26PM -0800, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>>if try 0, y, z := vec:
>># do yz plane stuff
>>elif try x, 0, z := vec:
>># do xz
> On Jan 1, 2020, at 08:32, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> Here's a proposal for JavaScript that seems to be going through
> standardization: https://github.com/tc39/proposal-pattern-matching
The JS solution is interesting, but I’m not sure how well it works for a
different la
g case, or the try-expression
PEP is up for reconsideration and incompatible with it, etc., that’s *not*
fine; anything I build that requires “if try” will not be acceptable, so it’s
not worth exploring further.
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is kind of backward from the way most other languages do things, but it
might work. After all, an as clause is already effectively a backward
assignment, and it reads nicely.
> Consider something like
> if (x, y, z) := vec as ?, 0, ?: # if y == 0
Even though the ? makes sense there, it doesn’
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