version checking.
Understood.
But would you agree that if you are writing code to be Python 2- and
Python 3-compatible, it is reasonable to check the major version:
Python3 = sys.version_info.major >= 3
if Python3:
# this code used to work without this bit
...
if not Python3:
I'm sending this to python-list because my emails to python-dev keep
getting bounced back (after a few days delay). I've no idea why.
Instead of `except group ...`, what about `except for ...`?
No new keywords.
Reads naturally in English.
Hints that there is more than one kind of
es
Rob Cliffe
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My 2¢ (perhaps it should be 3¢ as I've already contributed 2¢). Chris A
did ask/
"do Python core devs agree with less-skilled Python programmers on the
intuitions?"/
so putting myself firmly in the second camp (though I have been using
Python for over a decade) here are my t
On 26/10/2021 02:12, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 11:44 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
I prefer 1). Easier to understand and debug in examples with side-effects such
as
def f(a := enter_codes(), b = assign_targets(), c := unlock_missiles(), d
= FIRE()):
(not
s ability to provide friendly
error messages? (Pablo did a lot of work on error messages for 3.10, so check
a current python version).
I'm not saying I'm seeing an issue - just that these points need to be thought
through and perhaps mentioned in the PEP.
On Tuesday, October 26,
On 26/10/2021 02:56, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 01:32:58AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
Syntax bikeshedding: I still favour
var := expr
That clashes with the walrus operator. Remember that the walrus operator
can appear inside the expression:
On 26/10/2021 02:56, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 01:32:58AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
Syntax bikeshedding: I still favour
var := expr
That clashes with the walrus operator. Remember that the walrus operator
can appear inside the expression:
I think you'll find that this sort
of thing is rather surprising. And that's what we have here: changing
from one form of argument default to another changes whether
left-to-right applies or not.
I don't want that. And based on an experiment with a less-experienced
Python programmer (
llows late default values to refer
to subsequent early default values, e.g. in the example above
`latedefault2' could refer to `c`. So yes, then that code would be
legal on some interpreters and not others, as you said. If you
understood exactly what I meant, I apologise.
Rob Cliffe
___
7;s for
another day.
ChrisA
Indeed. And it could be useful to know if a parameter was passed a
value or given the default value.
Python has very comprehensive introspection abilities, but this is a
(small) gap.
Rob Cliffe
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t would be the point of writing it if
it didn't?
Rob Cliffe
-CHB
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Python Language Consulting
- Teaching
- Scientific Software Development
- Desktop GUI and Web Development
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On 27/10/2021 03:12, Brendan Barnwell wrote:
On 2021-10-26 17:41, Christopher Barker wrote:
Python used to be such a simple language, not so much anymore :-(
I quite agree, and I feel like this is my biggest reason why I
don't want this "feature" (or any of another gaz
+1 on the idea.
Sometimes early binding is needed, sometimes late binding is needed. So
Python should provide both. QED 😁
I'm not keen on the
var = > expr
syntax. IMO the arrow is pointing the wrong way. expr is assigned to var.
Some possible alternatives, if there is no t
ly is.
PEP 671, if accepted, will undoubtedly be USEFUL to Python programmers.
As for deferred evaluation objects:
First, Python already has various ways of doing deferred evaluation:
Lambdas
Strings, which can be passed to eval / exec / compile.
You can write deco
On 31/10/2021 08:05, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Tue, Oct 26, 2021 at 08:59:51AM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
And I don't understand what point you're making here. Yes, the walrus
operator can appear in various places, how is that relevant? You could write
def
as we
already have with early-bound defaults.
It's easy to argue against a feature by showing that it can be abused.
+1. The same argument (Brendan's) could be used against having e.g.
list comprehensions.
Rob Cliffe
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m poker): "Put up or shut
up". The first car would never have been built (in 1885 or thereabouts)
if the investors had insisted it wasn't worth doing unless it had air
bags, satellite GPS, in-car radio and cruise control.
PEP 671 will be USEFUL to Python programmers. We want it!
On 31/10/2021 21:54, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
On Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 5:39 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
PEP 671 will be USEFUL to Python programmers. We want it! (When
do we want it? Now!)
This feels dishonest. I believe I qualify as a Python programmer. I
started using Python
It would be nice to add the following syntax sugar in Python "Print and Eval"
like `ptev a == b` It is same as `statement = "a == b"; print(f"{statement} ?
{eval(statement)}")`.
It would super nice for debugg
ted PEP 671 anyway.
In short, this "more general feature" is a myth. A phantom. And,
frankly, an excuse to argue against a PEP which will have immediate
benefit to some (lots of?) Python programmers.
(I
know you differ on that point and I understand why, I just don't yet
agree.)
Taking a step back:
Suppose Python didn't have default values AT ALL for function
parameters? Say that unpassed parameters were always set to some
sentinel value (maybe None, maybe some special value NotPassed). Would
we want to add them to the language?
Surely almost everybody would sa
Currently pickling decorated function is impossible due to name collision.
Because the decorated function is what we want, so it would be nice to add
syntax sugar in Python to automatically rename original function with random
generated prefix or suffix.
This can greatly help the application
Executor `UnixForkExecutor` which is based on
`os.fork` and shared memory (to return future).
The drawback of UnixForkExecutor can only be used on Unix platform.
This is not a problem, because the majority people use python for parallel
computing on Unix platform.
Anyone have any opinion about it
there is).
Rob Cliffe
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e to write this sort of thing:
global TestsRun = 0, ElapsedTime = 0.0
but it's not a big deal.
Rob
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Hi,
Currrently, is it allowed for process worker to submit new task to its parent
executor?
Considering the following Python script:
```python3
import concurrent.futures
with concurrent.futures.ProcessPoolExecutor(max_workers=12) as ppe:
def hello(n: int) -> int:
if n =
Hi!
> I want to know does Python Developer’s Guide have chinese version, If not, i
> want to do some translation, may i tell to PSF(or other people) to grant
> authorization?
IIRC the idea has already been raised by Stéphane Wirtel a few years back, and
IIRC the conclusion was &q
l
use would be to overload the `==` operator for a DSL.
They might be rare, but they are allowed, and the Python interpreter
doesn't generally raise warnings for legal expressions used as statement
just because they *might* be a mistake.
Some compilers and interpreters raise a plethora of warnings, or
erator.)
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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On 02/12/2021 03:35, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Wed, Dec 01, 2021 at 05:16:34PM +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
1) If this feature existed in Python 3.11 exactly as described, would
you use it?
Yes I would, but probably not as often as counting cases of the "if
param is None: ...&qu
o access it as a
first-class value.
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I think that spelling is
kinda-sorta obvious for the lambda meaning, and the use you want is
kinda-sorta similar to a lambda. So I *do* understand how you get
there... but it still seems like much too much line noise for a very
minimal need.
Hm. A word is "vastly less confusing".
, for you all:
1) If this feature existed in Python 3.11 exactly as described, would
you use it?
Yes, when appropriate.
2) Independently: Is the syntactic distinction between "=" and "=>" a
cognitive burden?
(It's absolutely valid to say "yes" and "yes&qu
parameter unable to retrieve the default, then the implementation is
fatally broken.
It absolutely is not a feature.
It's backward incompatible:
15:03:04 R:\>python
Python 3.8.3 (tags/v3.8.3:6f8c832, May 13 2020, 22:20:19) [MSC v.1925 32
bit (Intel)] on win32
Type "help", &
ould return
something like, respectively,
"LateBound('[]')"
"[]"
I am sure there is code that uses inspect.signature that would be
broken, but isn't that inevitable anyway?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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On 03/12/2021 22:38, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 8:18 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 19:32, Adam Johnson wrote:
The first unwelcome surprise was:
>>> def func(a=>[]):
... return a
...
>&g
On 04/12/2021 01:06, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 11:59 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 22:38, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Sat, Dec 4, 2021 at 8:18 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On 03/12/2021 19:32, Adam Johnson wrote:
The first unwelcome
Cliffe
On 03/12/2021 21:05, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
A woefully incomplete review of default argument evaluation in other
languages. Updates and corrections are welcome.
Out of 22 languages apart from Python:
- 3 use early binding (default is evaluated at compile or function
definition time);
shes
Rob Cliffe
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On 05/12/2021 04:01, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
The cost here is that EVERY SINGLE student learning Python needs to
add this new construct to their mental load. EVERY book and tutorial
needs to be updated. EVERY experienced developer has to spend extra
effort understanding and writing code
admit I may be a overly vociferous in my opposition to this
particular change. But I also think your tone has been rather
consistently pugnacious, and a bit combative, in dismissing objections
or disagreements.
I know you genuinely wish to *improve Python*, and believe this PEP
*would* do so. But I t
On 06/12/2021 09:44, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas writes:
> Nobody has attempted (or at least completed) a PEP, never mind an
> implementation, of a "generalized deferred object/type", in the last N
> years or decades.
Haskell anything. R
of that cost. If your language supports static
storage for functions, you can use that. But in general, without come
sort of language support, simulating early binding in a language which
only provides late binding is not as easy, convenient or efficient as
doing it the other way.
_____
On 06/12/2021 23:13, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Mon, Dec 06, 2021 at 10:17:06AM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
If your language only has one, early binding is better.
That's your opinion. It's not mine. Witness the Stack Overflow
questions asking why `def f(ar
On 07/12/2021 18:22, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas writes:
> I think you're making my point.
*shrug* You wrote "object", I took you at your word.
> You're saying that the object part isn't that hard, but other parts of
> it
.
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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examples (in Python pseudo-code perhaps) showing how
*deferred evaluation* would be useful for a concrete task? (Solving an
equation. Drawing a graph. Analysing a document. Manufacturing a
widget. Planning a journey. Firing a missile. Anything! You name it.)
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
On 08/12
On 08/12/2021 23:09, David Mertz, Ph.D. wrote:
On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 5:55 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
But AIUI (i.e. practically not at all) Dask is about parallel
computing, which is not the same thing as deferred evaluation,
though doubtless they overlap. Again AIUI, parallel
GAIN] "Regardless of the syntax, having the
potential for def-time and call-time behavior to be mixed and
interleaved in arbitrary ways within the same function signature is
confusing."
4. [OBJECTION D] 'Currently anything that is a function default is
some kind of Python object tha
fault
unless there is a value that gets saved. Otherwise it is just
behavior in the function.
Remember, a late-bound default is most similar to this code:
def f(a=):
if a was omitted: a =
And in that form, the code isn't available as a first-class object.
That's why I say
Please, no, No, NO!
It has always been the policy that typing is, and will remain, optional.
On 09/12/2021 20:32, deavid wrote:
Hi, I would like to hear the opinion of Python's community on
enforcing types in the future for the language. I've been using Python
as my main la
s not Chris A's job to try to
clarify what *he thinks they mean*, which is what you appear to be
saying (if not, what *are* you saying by "channel others' thinking"?).
Best wishes
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del the_list[idx]
num -= 1
else:
idx += 1
With a `count` argument to `list.remove`, this is how it would be done:
the_list.remove(element_to_remove, count=num)
(Doesn't necessarily have to be a keyword argument)
Is this a good idea?
___
Yeah, I think that ship has sailed. Double punctuation just isn't
Python's thing, so there aren't really any good ways to shoehorn more
data types into fewer symbols.
ChrisA
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To
already say
a = frozenset({i+1 for i in range(3)})
which is not too bad.
On Sun, 16 Jan 2022 at 14:14, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
How about
fs{1, 2, 3}
?
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
On 16/01/2022 12:41, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11
On 17/01/2022 00:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 01:11:13PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
How about
fs{1, 2, 3}
What does the "s" add that the set {1, 2, 3} doesn't already tell us?
It helps to distinguish it from
f(1, 2, 3)
f
is executed. Frozenset itself is not
faster than a regular set.
Ronald
—
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Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
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t is a container of things, too). These differences make
is a lot easier to choose, ahead of time, which one makes sense before
you have even written the line of code.
Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I really like the idea of
deciding at the END of the set literal whether to
liffe
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;s true of anything: you have to learn
Python syntax to use Python. The fact that {1,2,3} is a set and
f{1,2,3} is a frozenset is not difficult to explain or to understand,
especially in a language that already uses single letter prefixes for
other things.
The .frozen() method is a strangely in
t time)
Dic = {} # format fruit:count
For fruit in fruits:
Dic[fruit]:= 0
Dic[fruit]+=1
Would be great to hear your feedback. Thanks.
Moj
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roblems that "action at a distance"
> effects, like monkeypatching class definitions, can cause in a code
> base.
>
> --
> Nick Coghlan | [email protected] | Brisbane, Australia
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don't see any real advantage here
other than the non-advantage of being able to write one-liners.
Paul
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t given how
open() works and that it looks similar superficially.
Cheers,
Thomas
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On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 3:49 AM, Robert Vanden Eynde
wrote:
>
> When I say "functional programming", I speak about the paradigm used in
> language like Haskell. In language like those, all constructs are
> "expression-based".
>
sure -- but Python is explicitl
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e reading from generators. But that wouldn't be helpful, obviously.
It is also possible to fix the particular issue by using another with
statement, that is use:
with contextlib.closing(read_multiple(…)) as chunks:
for contents in chunks:
…
Automatically closing the generator at t
start to develop a
certification.
Here's a couple of Python syllabuses (the first proprietary, the
> second perhaps open)
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/learning/exam-98-381.aspx
> https://pythoninstitute.org/pcap-exam-syllabus/
I am developing this:
https://uwpce-pythoncert.github.
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ere any other name can be used (as opposed to say, def)
Either this entire section is irrelevant or you meant to explain that there
> is only one "NoneType" object.
>
> Constant is a bit of a loaded term in Python, and I think you've fallen
> foul of it here.
>
rd, and just like any other keyword, it can't be re-bound.
>
>
> >> it's only a keyword because Python doesn't otherwise have a way of
> creating non-rebindable names. It's purpose is to represent the singular
> object of NoneType, and in that sense it'
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...:
In [32]: test_locals()
locals passed in: {'b': 2, 'a': 1}
locals after adding {'b': 2, 'a': 1, 'fred': 5}
{'b': 2, 'a': 1, 'fred': 5}
fred: 5
It seems you CAN modify the locals dict passed in, and the change will show
up in the enclosing scope.
But it sounds like that is not guaranteed by the language.
-CHB
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.
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e people are likely to encounter the term elsewhere.
-CHB
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chri
fies that object -- will,
or will not, the local namespace be altered? Saying it "may" be altered is
kind of crazy! Does that mean the same code will have a different effect if
run in two different (compliant) implementations of Python? That sure seems
like a bad idea...
> more so, I do
e it easier for
newbies, and in the end, you'd end up with something like iPython.
Honestly, Python does "suffer" a bit when in competition with commercial
products, in that it is a language (and an implementation of that
language), not an entire programming environment. So to use
reception
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pleGUI doesn't cover, what are your options?
>
This is key -- and one of the real issues around wrapping multiple GUI
back-ends -- you end up having to do a lot of re-implementation of details.
In fact, I always thought Pyton_guiu above really suffered from that
conceptually. For example,
on
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n/stable/hashing.html
>>
>
> There is correction:
> recordclass and it's base memoryslots didn't implement __hash__, but
> memoryslots implement richcompare (almost as python's list).
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> On Sunday, September 2, 201
o/
> IMHO a better usage of the PSF funding would be to organize some local
> sprints to translate the Python documentation.
That's what we're already doing here in France for the french translation, and
the PSF is already fouding them (thanks!) in Paris [1] and the AFPy [2] i
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hat much state
> in a function call, maybe you should have a class that holds that state? Or
> pass in a **kwargs dict?
>
>
> Kwargs isn’t good because it breaks static analysis which we really want.
>
well, Python isn't a static language, and I personally have my doubts about
tr
On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> To be fair, in my
> > experience this has been a source of confusion to many Python
> > newcomers, as the notion of "beauty", as with any other value
> > judgment, is highly relative to the subject
ever participate in any
other type of discussion forum regularly.
-CHB
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> >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
> > >
> > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the
> > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the
> > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PE
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote:
> One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to
> read on Python-ideas.
>
You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't the
volume, but the nature and timing of the discussi
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 10:10 PM Lee Braiden wrote:
> It's the reason why type checking exists, and why bounds checking exists,
> and why unit checking exists too.
>
And yet Python has none of those. They all provide safety, but also place a
burden on the developer.
So why use P
gt;> Hi Jasper,
>> This seems like a great idea! It looks so much cleaner, too.
>>
>> Would there be a dunder method handling this? Or since it's explicitly just
>> a syntax for "obj = obj.method()" is that not necessary?
>> My only qualm is that this mig
expecting an int, a nan-aware int might not work. It seems more like
int is a subclass of nan-aware int.
Another idea is having it as a completely different class. int can be made
a virtual subclass of it. This can be implemented in pure Python too.
However, I do not think there is a strong enough
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