it in the
field than if we try to design it here.
> BTW -- there are a whole lot of Syntax Errors that a semi smart algorithm
> could provide meaningful suggestions about about. I'm pretty sure that's come
> up before on this list, but maybe "helpful" mode you
> I do see this, though not entirely sure what to make of it:
>
> https://docs.python.org/3/c-api/sequence.html?highlight=sequence
Yeah, the fact that sequences and mappings have identical methods means that
from Python those two protocols are opt-in rather than automatic, while from C
you
not itself escaped?
More generally, what’s the use case for %-encoding filenames like this? Are
people expecting it to interact transparently with URLs, so if I save a file
“spam\0eggs” in a Python script and then try to browse to file:///spam\0eggs”
in a browser, the browser will convert the \0 c
nothing can duck type
as a string“ issue.
Here’s an example that I can write in, say, Swift or Rust or even C++, but not
in Python: I mmap a giant mailbox file, and I can treat that as a string
without copying it anywhere. I split it into a string for each message—I don’t
want to copy them all into
On May 10, 2020, at 22:36, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas writes:
>
>> A lot of people get this confused. I think the problem is that we
>> don’t have a word for “iterable that’s not an iterator”,
>
> I think part of the proble
dged
sequence view. I’ve started designing such a thing multiple times, every couple
years or so, and always realize it’s even more work than I thought and harder
to fit into Python than i thought and give up.
But maybe doing it _just_ for view slicing, rather than for everything, and
requiring
On May 11, 2020, at 12:59, Barry Scott wrote:
>
>
>> On 11 May 2020, at 18:09, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> wrote:
>>
>> More generally, what’s the use case for %-encoding filenames like this? Are
>> people expecting it to interact transpar
On May 11, 2020, at 12:54, Wes Turner wrote:
>
>
> What does sanitizepart do with newlines \n \r \r\n in filenames? Are these
> control characters?
>>> unicodedata.category('\n')
Cc
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d?
Most importantly, you need to clarify what the use case is, and why this
proposal meets it. Otherwise, it sounds more like a trap to make people think
their code is safe when it isn’t, not a fix for the real problem.
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know. I’m pretty sure the modern
versions of Shift-JIS, EUC-*, Big5, and GB can never have continuation bytes
below 0x30, but even if I’m right, are these (and UTF-8, of course) the only
multi-byte encodings anyone ever uses on Unix filesystems?
_______
Pyt
ecs, they probably wouldn’t
have been banned (see UTF-16LE, which is even easier to exploit this way, but
unfortunately way too common).
I don’t think Python comes with codecs for any of these encodings. And I don’t
know of anyone who ever used them for filenames. (SCSU was the default fs
enco
On May 12, 2020, at 23:29, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert writes:
>>> On May 10, 2020, at 22:36, Stephen J. Turnbull
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas writes:
>>>
>>>> A lot of people get this
to 3.7, but has been
that way back into the mists of whenever you could first write old-style import
hooks, even up to the way error recovery works. I’ve taken advantage of this
behavior in experimenting with new syntax. If your new syntax is not just
unambiguous at the parser level, but even at the
bject
>
> a list_view object is a immutable sequence. indexing it returns elements from
> the original list.
Can we just say that it returns an immutable sequence that blah blah, without
defining or naming the type of that sequence?
Python doesn’t define the types of most things you never c
all know that list_view isn’t meant to name a
specific type (and to be guaranteed distinct from tuple_view), I think we’ll
all be fine.
>> Python doesn’t define the types of most things you never construct directly.
>
> No, but there are ABCs so that might e the way to talk about this.
seem to be the example that many people run into first.
(Or maybe lots of people do run into map first, but fewer of them get confused
and need to go ask for help?) When you’re teaching a class, you can guide
people to hit the things you want them to think about, but the intern, or C#
guru who
On May 14, 2020, at 03:01, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:41:06AM -0700, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>> I think in general people will expect that a slice view on a sequence
>> acts like “some kind of sequence”, not like the
On May 14, 2020, at 03:35, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 09:36:14PM -0700, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>
>>> for i in itertools.seq_view(a_list)[::2]:
>>>...
>>>
>>> I still think
On May 14, 2020, at 10:45, Rhodri James wrote:
>
> On 14/05/2020 17:47, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>> Which is exactly why Christopher said from the start of this thread,
>> and everyone else has agreed at every step of the way, that we can’t
>> change
nstead of a list. But again, I’m not sure how bad
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"file") as f:
> for line in f:
> do_other_stuff(line)
>
> I don't know, maybe they asked the student next to them. :-)
Or they got it off StackOverflow or Python-list or Quora or wherever. Those
resources really do occasionally work as intended, pro
den? Suddenly
> been possessed by the spirits of deceased Java and Ruby programmers
> intent on changing the look and feel of Python to make it "real object
> oriented"? *wink*
No, we have remembered that language design is not made up of trivial rules
like “functions
the wrapper doesn’t actually type-check that
at __new__ time they’d work anyway. But why would anyone, especially when they
care about speed, use a generic viewslice function on a numpy array instead of
just using numpy’s own view slicing?)
It seems like a dunder is something that could be added a
ut it will treat an
emoji as potentially part of an identifier, so (if that emoji is immediately
followed by legal identifier characters, ASCII or otherwise) the caret will
show up too far to the right.
I’m still glad the Python tokenizer doesn’t do this (because, as I said, I’ve
relied on the docum
maybe it’s worth putting an
implementation on PyPI as soon as possible, so we can get some experience using
it and make sure the design doesn’t have any unexpected holes and, if we’re
lucky, get some uptake from people outside this thread._______
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s, just like tuple, etc.
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methods?
>
> That's not what I said. Of course Python should have methods -- it's an
> OOP language after all, and it's pretty hard to have objects unless they
> have behaviour (methods). Objects with no behaviour are just structs.
>
> But seriously, and this
es (at least not
without patching up a whole lot more code than we want). But I’ll try it and
see if I’m wrong.
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at is wrong (ceteribus paribus) with making it easy for them to do so?
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Me
To strip at most 1 character from the end:
txt[:-1] + txt[-1:].rstrip(chars)
To strip at most N characters:
txt[:-N] + txt[-N:].rstrip(chars)
Given that, I think yours is too much of a niche case to change anything
in Python
Rob Cliffe
On 19/05/2020 12:44, computermaster360 . wrote:
I
s*
multiple ways are allowed as long as there is one clear preference.
--
Richard Damon
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On 17/05/2020 20:17, James Lu wrote:
Many a python programmer have tired to see code written like:
def bar(a1, a2, options=None):
if options is None:
options = {}
... # rest of function
syntax if argument is not passed, evaluate {} and store to options
def foo(options
N items".)
Whereas doing that with a boolean `strict` would lead, as others have
pointed out, to an ugly API (2 booleans that can't both be True).
Rob Cliffe
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On 21/05/2020 14:50, Steve Barnes wrote:
The issue is simple and simple enough for a beginner to fall foul of -
test procedure:
Change directory to any directory with files in totally a few 10s of
megs (ideally but it doesn't matter much).
python -m zipfile -c my_zipfile.zip .
Wait
On 21/05/2020 14:50, Steve Barnes wrote:
The issue is simple and simple enough for a beginner to fall foul of - test
procedure:
Change directory to any directory with files in totally a few 10s of megs
(ideally but it doesn't matter much).
python -m zipfile -c my_zipfile.zip .
Wait
.
Sounds like a list comprehension: [ needle for needle in haystack if
func(needle) ]
So maybe one is best...
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umber
keys; that made a real mess of sorting street addresses.
How old was your customer?
IIRC when I was a child, we had a typewriter that had keys for the
digits 2-9,
but for 0 and 1 you had to use the above trick.
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On 24/05/2020 19:01, David Mertz wrote:
The old images I find lack the '1', but not the '0'. What model was
this you had?
Sorry, no way I can remember that far back. I'm not even certain about
the missing 0.
On Sun, May 24, 2020 at 1:48 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-i
ath' and 'str', then does something with
the result and `len'.
# Not: first does something with `len' and ... what?
Jesus, why is the whole world not using it already?
Maybe for the same reason the world still uses QWERTY keyboards.
Maybe that's what programmers (we
supplied
that that was the *wrong* decision.
There may have been what seemed good reasons for it at the time (can
anyone point me
to any relevant discussions, or is this too far back in the Python
primeval soup?).
But it is a constant surprise to newbies (and sometimes not-so-newbies).
As is att
drive is very handy. Could this be another use for it?
Rob Cliffe
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We do not have a standard way to get (programatically) informations
about Python versions, this leads to having to commit to numerous places
during each releases, and some other places never get the information
(like old docs, see [1]).
Maybe we should provide an HTTP API listing Python
cii(). bool(), callable(), dir(), format(), hash(),
help(), isinstance(None, ...)
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ere in memory.
It might be created later in foo(), but it would then have a value.
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On 25/05/2020 15:33, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 03:54:30PM +0100, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
I find having a RAM drive is very handy. Could this be another use for it?
Could be, if there's a standard way to create a RAM drive on all windows
machin
al or otherwise,
this product or any company or individual that provides it, other than
being a satisfied user.
Other products are available; I haven't tried any of them so can't
comment on them.
Rob Cliffe
On 28/05/2020 03:00, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 05/27/2020 05:53 PM, Rob Cliffe via Pyt
m ?= Spam()):
etc.
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Hi,
Python has integrated shared memory into standard library starting from 3.8
(https://docs.python.org/3/library/multiprocessing.shared_memory.html
<https://docs.python.org/3/library/multiprocessing.shared_memory.html>), which
provides a user friendly API to access shared memory
Hi,
As Barry wrote, I am asking for the ability to use shared semaphores in python
across unrelated processes. So, that shared memory used across unrelated
processes can be synchronised.
Although, I am suggesting this only because I am unable to synchronise shared
memory across unrelated
AM, Vinay Sharma via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> As Barry wrote, I am asking for the ability to use shared semaphores in
> python across unrelated processes. So, that shared memory used across
> unrelated processes can be synchronised.
>
> Although, I am suggesting th
the shared memory segment would be
much cleaner and easier to do, but unfortunately macos has deprecated sem_t.
Other ways include storing an integer in the shared memory segment, which could
be altered via atomic operations, this integer can be used as a counting
semaphore.
Python uses the follo
Hi,
Just curious, why would bringing back Python 2’s print statement be a good idea?
Warm Regards,
Sadhana Srinivasan
On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 2:39 AM, Jonathan Goble wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 8:08 PM Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> I believe there are some other languages th
blank line
print # silent failure
That's especially going to burn people who remember Python 2, where it
did print a blank line instead of evaluating to the `print` object.
No problem! If the new super-duper
all-singing-and-dancing-and-make-the-tea parser can cope with
'print&#
On 12/06/2020 00:17, MRAB wrote:
On 2020-06-11 22:15, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 06/11/2020 01:18 PM, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
If the new super-duper all-singing-and-dancing-and-make-the-tea
parser can cope with
'print' without parens, it can cope with print followed by noth
i in range(10) if i == 5]
if a:
print(a)
Evaluate: [5]
```
I hope I explained my idea well enough and hope to see something like
this in the future.
If anyone has questions on my interpretation please ask.
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them from the
main thread, if you have potentially critical regions running in any
non-main thread, there's no good way for them to tell the main thread to
change the handlers... except by sending the main thread a signal. That
requires the "suppressing" handler to have nontrivial l
Absolutely, but I figured the natural thing to expose from the C API was a
very minimal function, and then put a context manager in the Python layer.
The actual context manager implementation I would use would be a bit
smarter than a bare set/reset -- it would use an unbounded semaphore and
only
ne of the systems I've do control is the shell
that runs cron jobs (not their scheduling, but their actual execution)
which needs to provide an outer harness that manages getting commands from
the scheduler, integration with all sorts of logging and monitoring
systems, etc., and needs to actually
Hmm, interesting thought! I'll try that out.
Thanks!
On Fri, Jun 26, 2020, 01:51 Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 18:32:48 -0700
> Yonatan Zunger via Python-ideas
> wrote:
> >
> > So that's an example of why you might find yourself in such a situation
On 29/06/2020 20:19, Rhodri James wrote:
On 29/06/2020 18:42, Stestagg wrote:
Several times now, I've had the need to 'just get any key/value' from a
large dictionary. I usually try first to run `var.keys()[0]` only to be
told that I'm not allowed to do this, and instea
On 29/06/2020 15:29, Mikhail V wrote:
Proposal:
Allow standard python escapes inside curly braces in f-strings.
Main point is to make clear visual distinction between text and
escaped chars:
# current syntax:
print ("\nnewline")
print ("\x0aa")
# new syn
erent (apart from binding `i` and
`j`) from
for item in d.items():
do(item)
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the error message to
'foo must be 1, 2, 3 or 4'
but if you look at the code, this is kinda obvious (and if you forget to do it,
it's also
obvious to someone reading the code).
Objection 3: Not worth forcing Python users to learn a new construct for not
much benefit.
't think the new function should be restricted to numbers. There
may be uses for strings, or for user-built classes; why restrict it
unnecessarily?
If it quacks like supporting __lt__ and __gt__, it's a duck.
Rob Cliffe
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(or both) missing, sometimes not.
Rob Cliffe
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. sets would be unusual and come labelled with
"consenting adults, use at own risk".
Rob Cliffe
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I would not expect `lower` to ever be True or False, I
> expect this condition to always fail. Am I missing something?
This uses comparison chaining and is equivalent to “lower == upper and upper is
not None”. I don’t like this particular style, I had to read this a couple of
times to get
hat makes it
impossible to use, as an example, a linked list to preserve insertion order.
Ronald
—
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Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/ <https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/>
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iously), so a change to linked-lists would not
> change this runtime O characteristic.
The current views don’t support indexing at all, that’s the whole point of this
thread.
Ronald
—
Twitter / micro.blog: @ronaldoussoren
Blog: https://blog.ronaldoussoren.net/
____
ould require O(1): I wouldn't want to constrain
> any implementation for a niche use case.
I agree.
Ronald
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-----
This idea was suggested as enhancement issue
(https://bugs.python.org/issue41272).
Eric V. Smith (eric.smith) advised me to put this on the python-ideas mailing
list (https://bugs.python.org/issue41272#msg373486).
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Just to
xarray greatly. It's also
somewhat of an additional novelty added to the proposal that is somewhat
independent.
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On 13/07/2020 18:42, Barry Scott wrote:
On 13 Jul 2020, at 05:55, Christopher Barker <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
well, sure, though I have to say that I think that that's an
unfortunate confusing thing about python dicts. IN fact, I doubt
there are many uses at all
and 'if not break:' rather than say
'on_break:' etc. would avoid adding new keywords.
I don't know what to do about the zero iterations case, though.
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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T
I don't know what to do about the zero iterations case, though.
Perhaps simply `if not:'
Best wishes
Rob Cliffe
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allowed between). It looks like a regular IF, but COND is
special.
On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, at 00:16, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
Something to consider: Would it be legal to mix these CONDs with other
conditions in the 'elif' chain? E.g.
if break:
...
elif x > 0:
...
On 20/07/2020 09:56, Alex Hall wrote:
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 10:36 AM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
May I repeat: Spelling 'if break:' and 'if not break:' rather
than say
'on_break:' etc. would avoid ad
at it’s due to Knuth and that Raymond said
so). I invented it without awareness of prior art, by reasoning about
the similarity between IF and WHILE (FOR followed from WHILE).
—Guido
See Raymond's video "Transforming Code into Beautiful, Idiomatic Python" at
https://www.youtube.com/wa
e may even be able to have a static attribute stored to change the various
default kwargs of pprint.pformat().
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a function
unless the import could actually be local to the f-string itself, not
the surrounding scope
(perhaps similar to the way a list comprehension is implemented as a
function with its own scope).
I don't totally understand these matters, so I may have got something wrong.
__
On 21/07/2020 22:07, Barry wrote:
On 21 Jul 2020, at 18:47, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 03:22 Jonathan Fine <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
This is a continuation of my previous post to this thread.
Python's FOR ... ELSE
deficiency in the current pprint.pformat. The proposal
would not change anything here.
I'm sure there are others.
Could you specify.?
I'm not saying I'm +1 on the proposal. Just that there don't seem to be
any insurmountable obstacles to it. My greatest unease is an i
On 22/07/2020 00:29, MRAB wrote:
On 2020-07-22 00:02, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
On 21/07/2020 22:07, Barry wrote:
On 21 Jul 2020, at 18:47, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
wrote:
On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 03:22 Jonathan Fine <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On 22/07/2020 22:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 7:06 AM João Matos wrote:
Hello,
Why not just use Raymond's suggestion nobreak as a replacement of the else in
loops and deprecate the else in Python 4?
There is at least a precedent when not equal <> was de
ramming.
The upholders of the status quo regularly provide gallant explanations
of why "else" is perfectly natural, even intuitive.
The fact is, it isn't. If it were, it wouldn't **need** to be
repeatedly explained by gurus to lesser mortals. I can't think of any
othe
ogramming.
Suggesting (as you seem to be) that a given language feature requires an
advanced qualification in English to be understood properly scarcely
constitutes an endorsement of said feature. O:-)
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On 25/07/2020 07:59, David Mertz wrote:
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020, 9:19 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
The upholders of the status quo regularly provide gallant
explanations of why "else" is perfectly natural, even intuitive.
They remind me of these two mathematicians:
M1: T
egment using both the
processes, so for me to prevent any race condition (data corruption), either
these operations must be atomic, or I should be able to lock / unlock shared
memory segment, which I cannot at the moment.
I earlier posted a solution
<https://mail.python.org/archives/list/pyt
"then" as a placeholder,
with the final choice of word to be determined. But I do think this is
pretty darn illustrative --'cause I would find "then" even LESS
intuitive, and it's a whole new keyword to boot!
I'm one of those folks that have been around Python
suggest to update PEP8, so it'd recommend skipping blank
lines in this
case.
Thank you for your attention and sorry for my bad English.
Sincerely yours,
Nikita Serba.___
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s object will also be shared across multiple processes, there must be
a safe way to update it.
Any thoughts on that ?
> On 27-Jul-2020, at 3:50 PM, Robert Collins wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Jul 2020 at 19:11, Vinay Sharma via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>>
>> Problem:
>
er
loop) might be "break all" or "break *".
(BTW I have a job lot of bikesheds, in case you want any cheap ones.)
So maybe you could give half an eye to not clashing with some such
possible future scheme?
Rob
___
Python-id
ified yet: is 'sync' in the name
> implying a mutex, an RW lock, or dependent on pointers to atomic types
> (which then becomes a portability challenge in some cases). The C++
> atomics documentation you linked to documents a similar but
> differently named set of methods,
I think you are talking about shared/named semaphores. The problem with them is
that python doesn’t have support for shared semaphores, so the first step would
be to build an API providing access to shared semaphores, and then this API can
be used to synchronise shared memory.
> On 30-Jul-2
> On 01-Aug-2020, at 1:31 AM, Marco Sulla wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 Jul 2020 at 12:57, Vinay Sharma via Python-ideas
> mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> Python has support for atomic types, I guess:
> Atomic Int:
> https://github.com/python/cpython/b
The shared memory scheduler has some notable limitations:
> >
> > - It works on a single machine
> > - The threaded scheduler is limited by the GIL on Python code, so if your
> > operations are pure python functions, you should not expect a multi-core
> > speedup
&g
ultiprocessing.RLock>
> On Sat, 1 Aug 2020 at 22:42, Eric V. Smith <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> While they're immutable at the Python level, strings (and all other
> objects) are mutated at the C level, due to reference count updates. You
> need to consider this if yo
On 29/07/2020 14:51, Ethan Furman wrote:
On 7/28/20 10:30 PM, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
A possible, unrelated, future language extension is to allow breaking
out of more than one loop at a time.
I would think that
break
would handle that situation.
--
~Ethan~
Maybe. But
of syntax will be easier.
By the way, the word_count example is as I typed it, but it has a
typo. Did you spot it when you read it? (I only noticed it when
re-reading my message.)
Finally, thank you for your contributions. More examples please.
--
Jonathan
______
they track across system suspend or not. These clocks exist on at least
Windows, macOS, and Linux.
[1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0418/#id56
—
Rishav
P.S.: This is my first time submitting to the Python mailing lists. Suggestions
for improvement are appreciated
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