On Mar 4, 2020, at 01:56, Mark Dickinson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 9:22 AM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> wrote:
>
>> Is there any commonly used or even imaginable useful type that uses them in
>> weirder ways than set and float (wh
t keyword param that accepts any iterable of strings.
So when you have a set of prefixes, you don’t have to call
s.lcut(tuple(prefixes)), you just pass the set as-is to
s.lstrip(strings=prefixes)).
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; dealing with floating point numbers. Sometimes I wonder if since Python
> supports dynamic typing of results, might not do better by removing the NaN
> value from Floats and Decimals, and make the operations that generate the NaN
> generate an object of a special NaN type.
The thing is
via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
>
>> On Mar 30, 2019, at 12:30, MRAB wrote:
>>
>> I'd much prefer .lcut/.rcut to .cut_prefix/.cut_suffix, to match
>> .lstrip/.rstrip.
>
> I agree that we should use either l/r or something to do with start/end. We
On Mar 5, 2020, at 05:24, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> On 3/4/20 11:07 PM, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
>>> On Mar 4, 2020, at 19:12, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> Yes, because of the NaN issue, you sort of need an 'Almost Total Order' and
>>> '
> On Mar 5, 2020, at 01:27, Steve Barnes wrote:
> One of the lovely things about Python is that we have the capability to avoid
> issues such as the vagaries of the floating point type with libraries such as
> decimal and fractions. This is wonderous to me but comes with an
On Mar 5, 2020, at 02:11, Steve Barnes wrote:
>
> Comments in-line (I wish Outlook would behave sensibly)
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Moore
> Sent: 05 March 2020 09:52
> To: Steve Barnes
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Python-ideas]
gt;for B in C.__mro__:
>if B in cls._explicit_only_registry:
>return NotImplemented
>
>return cls._check_overrides_rich_comparison_methods(C)
>
>@classmethod
>def _check_overrides_rich_comparison_methods(cls, C):
>mro =
On Mar 5, 2020, at 08:27, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2020 at 8:13 PM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
>> wrote:
>
>> Sorry, I thought I was replying to something from today, not a year ago.
>
> Which is fine — that conversation kind of p
r
> Raised when an operation or function is applied to an object of inappropriate
> type.
etc. It's never stated that TypeError should be raised when the number
of arguments is invalid, for example. It seems that TypeError itself
is saying "now I'm used outside my scope" :-)
, and 64 other characters have the
same byte invisibly as their second byte.)
Things that are not even that ASCII-compatible include UTF-16, EBCDIC code
pages, 80s Atari encoding, etc.; they are not commonly used in real-world UNIX
systems. Which I think was Random’s point.___
On Mar 10, 2020, at 13:18, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
> Getting a bit OT, but I *think* this is the story:
>
> I've heard it argued, by folks that want to write Python software that uses
> bytes for filenames, that:
>
> A file path on a *nix system can be any s
On Mar 11, 2020, at 03:07, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> But bytes are useful for more than just file names!
The paradigm example of this is HTTP. It’s mostly people working on HTTP
clients, servers, middleware, and apps who pushed for the bytes methods in
Python 3.x. IIRC, the PE
ike much of a problem, much less a problem worth breaking fundamental
truthiness for a builtin type.
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y
surprised me. I had to add a boolean() function in my little msutils
module, that works also for ndarrays.
And the reason ndarray do this is because it also override __eq__():
https://github.com/numpy/numpy/issues/15573
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ove x` might be more understandable, but adding new keywords is expensive
>
> ## Optional extension
>
> For consistency, `x = (del foo.attr)` and `x = (del foo[i])` could also
> become legal expressions, and `__delete__`, `__delattr__`, and `__delitem__`
> would now have
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 5:50 AM Marco Sulla via Python-ideas <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Actually, this is the behaviour of ndarray with any dtype. And IMHO
> ithis is quite terrible?
I can see how you would think that. But the fact is that element-wise
operations are ve
ements
collections.abc.Sequence, even if it's really not true. Like dict:
>>> help(dict)
Help on class dict in module builtins:
class dict(object)
[...]
>>> issubclass(dict, MutableMapping)
True
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easy to write, read, and debug because the language and stdlib were designed
around move, rather than it being retrofitted in. Obviously you’re not
proposing to turn Python into a big mess like C++, but you are proposing to add
complexity for something that can only be a micro optimization that we
's a
reference that can't be deleted, until the current scope is not
finished.
This in practice will break `del variable`
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https://m
new language, the loop variable would be a new
binding (a separate variable) each time through, because I think that’s what
people actually expect. (Everyone runs into the problem of capturing loop
variables in closures —not just in Python, but in radically different languages
like C++. And
On Mar 12, 2020, at 10:52, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 18:19, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> No, it wouldn't - the use of the value as a return value counts as a
>> reference. It's exactly the same as any other function that returns a
bjects. I quote:
> Heuristicly it seems to be beneficial around 400kb array sizes (which is
> about the typical L2 cache size).
I think anyway that this could be a good idea, without changing `del`.
The problem is: how can Python knows that a generic operation will
create a temporary varia
d have been popped
earlier. Compilers for lots of other languages routinely do this kind of static
analysis even though it’s a lot more complicated in, say, C++ than in Python.
But I don’t think that would actually help this case. Each temporary is
immediately consumed by the next opcode, not dis
altogether.
Exactly. But if `x = None` will return the previous value of x, the
refcount of the object will be not decreased, and Python does not free
the object memory.
An example:
(venv) marco@buzz:~/sources$ python
Python 3.8.2 (tags/v3.8.2-dirty:7b3ab5921f, Mar 1 2020, 16:16:55)
[GCC 9.2.0]
ement ends, it has no effect on speed.
On the contrary, for what I have read, the numpy patch removes the
temporary ndarrays immediately. This speeds up calcula with large
ndarrays.
So there's no need to change the `del` behaviour. Python could
implement something similar to the numpy patch
uldn’t need the C
> frame hackery. But that seems like it would slow down everything in exchange
> for occasionally helping numpy and a few other C extension libs.
The author of the patch says this is already implemented in string
concatenation in Python itself. Maybe we should look at the
impl
king refs==1 is could check refs==1 && !c_flagged, and then it wouldn’t
>> need the C frame hackery. But that seems like it would slow down everything
>> in exchange for occasionally helping numpy and a few other C extension libs.
>
> The author of the patch says this is al
l is that `(del bc) + d` would enter `bc.__add__(d)` with
> `self` passed with a refcount of 1.
So your proposal doesn’t help their problem. At best, it gives them the same
behavior they already have, which they still need to optimize.
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On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 18:42, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
wrote:
> What if a for loop, instead of nexting the iterator and binding the result to
> the loop variable, instead unbound the loop variable, nexted the Iterator,
> and bound the result to the loop variable?
I missed that.
c and d are all ndarrays, the
temporary objects are discard as soon as they are no more referenced,
instead of at the end of the statement.
He thought that the change of `del` he proposed will give him that
behavior, but this is not true. And I don't think it's very much
simple to implement
t's done by Python also for
strings. Maybe it's an old "feature"? Since it seems this happens for
_every_ object.
I tried to install numpy version 1.14.0rc1, the latest version before
the patch, but it's not compatible with python 3.8, since
PyThreadState was changed in Pyt
On Mar 12, 2020, at 14:32, Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 21:22, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> They actually ARE already discarded
>
> 0O
> You're right. So *how* can juliantaylor said he measured a speedup of
> 2x for large ndarrays?
but
it's removed after the reassignment. This was not very clear in Eric
Wieser's example, since the size of the iterable was too short.
I suppose Python, as Andrew Barnert suggested, can immediately discard
the old object for comprehensions. But, really, I don't see a very big
advantag
On Mar 12, 2020, at 13:22, Marco Sulla
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 at 18:42, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>> What if a for loop, instead of nexting the iterator and binding the result
>> to the loop variable, instead unbound the loop variable, nexted
???
We are saying the same thing.
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:18 AM Marco Sulla via Python-ideas
wrote:
> This speedup is observed only for large objects
On Fri, 13 Mar 2020 at 00:45, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote:
> it's only beneficial to try it when the array
Deleting Thing(abcd) - ID: 140185716001088
As you can see, Thing(abcd) has the same id of Thing(ab). So what Eric
Wieser wanted is already implemented in Python, for temporary objects.
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observations are done by benchmarks. In the
real world, how can you be sure that L2 cache is not already filled
up? :-)
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> On Mar 12, 2020, at 17:47, Marco Sulla
> wrote:
>
> Well, so all this discussion is only for freeing _one_ memory location
> earlier?
Basically, yes.
And now I get why you were confused—you’re not confused about Python, you’re
confused about the proposal, because you expe
These are coming in fine because they are not handled by Mailman's
filtering rules. And the reason for the holds is they are being flagged for
" Message has implicit destination".
On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 8:06 AM Marco Sulla <
[email protected]> wrote:
On 22/02/2020 06:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Actually, in Python, regexes are the primary reason raw strings were
added!
Raw strings aren't quite fully raw, which is why you can't use raw
strings for Windows paths:
path = r'somewhere\some\folder\'
doesn't
rty lib to work
through three versions of Python…
One library, blist (a wide hybrid b-tree-like design) got somewhat popular, and
its author proposed it to be added to the stdlib, offering to maintain it. But
he wanted to also replace list and str with ropes built on the same foundation,
which no
rarely use the ∞ symbol for any of them.
But people definitely do use the ∞ symbol for the projective infinity (the
single point added to the real line to create the projective circle), and its
complex equivalent (the single point added to the complex plan to give you the
Riemann sphere).
> On Mar 16, 2020, at 00:13, Ben Rudiak-Gould wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 15, 2020 at 9:41 PM Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>> Do you really want to require “binary”?
>
> I don't think so; they never talked about binary trees, only "binary
> search
he reason we call complex
addition “addition” in the first place. And C-bar built in this way continues
R-bar in the same way C continues R. And the C-style approximation of C-bar
with IEEE float approximately continues IEEE float in the same way (albeit
sadly not always with the same bounds of approximatio
looking first.
At any rate, I still stand by the point that nobody is going to expect O(1)
copies for sorteddict when list, dict, etc. don’t do it.
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l never to insert any NaN values. Since
Python containers are heterogeneous, the requirement has to be specified on the
values rather than the types, just like the requirement on hashability for
dict. Which means you could legally use non-NaN floats as keys. (It‘a still
often a bad idea, fo
ava, etc.
don’t provide anything like that, only sorted dicts, sets, and multisets. (C#
does have a SortedList, but it doesn’t act like a list, it acts like an
ItemsView, in Python terms.) And it’s rare that you need something that’s
sorted but also directly indexable; when you do, the answer in
olutely no offence to anyone involved.
Rob Cliffe
On 16/03/2020 17:33, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas wrote:
On Mar 16, 2020, at 02:54, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
Andrew Barnert writes:
Well, there are an infinite number of ever larger infinite
ordinals, ω or ω_0 being the first one, and l
es of course]
Rob Cliffe
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t, by adding whatever code you
want that gets run before and after the statement.
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On Mar 19, 2020, at 06:23, Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas writes:
>
>> [A] context manager seems perfect. It allows you to hint any
>> statement, including a loop statement, by adding whatever code you
>> want that gets run bef
On Mar 19, 2020, at 11:29, Marco Sulla wrote:
>
> On Mon, 16 Mar 2020 at 22:22, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>> I think the best solution is to just not have a SortedList. C++, Java, etc.
>> don’t provide anything like that
>
> Guava has TreeMultiset:
&
06 PM Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas
mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Consider that the start or end of a string may contain repetitions
of an
affix.
Should `-+-+-+Spam'.stripprefix('-+') remove just the first
occurence?
All of them? Does it n
On Mar 20, 2020, at 19:32, Christopher Barker wrote:
>
> It’s a bit ironic: if you have a nifty idea for Python, you are often told to
> try it out on your own. And if you expect it to maybe make its way into
> Python, you’d want to use a dunder...
>
> But then, dunders ar
thing it is a superset of),
but I think there would be more danger of confusion with this new method.
+0 on the proposal
Rob Cliffe
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> On Mar 22, 2020, at 18:54, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> Do you have an example of `A <= B and B <= A` aside from the `A == B`
> case?
For mathematical sets, this is either impossible by definition, or impossible
by 2-line proof, depending on which definitions yo
> On Mar 23, 2020, at 11:16, Frédéric De Jaeger wrote:
>
> The command:
>
>python myscript.py
>
> launches python3 on windows and python2 on 99% of the unix market.
While that’s true for Mac 10.14, Ubuntu 18.04 LTS, etc., I think almost
everyone is deprecating Pyth
t; "\xe1" and vice versa (just as those two strings don't compare equal).
Agreed, but I think it’s not just “to start with”, but forever, or at least as
long as Python strings are sequences of Unicode code points. If
"Café".startswith("Cafe\u0301") is false, &qu
to compare sets.
(Perhaps issubset/issuperset should not accept non-set iterables, but
that ship has sailed.)
Rob Cliffe
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t;> the simple and straight-forward option of case sensitivity and precise
>>> matching. Removing a prefix of "a\u0301" will not remove a leading
>>> "\xe1" and vice versa (just as those two strings don't compare equal).
>>
>> Agreed, but I
you’re right that it’s rare enough (and easy enough to work around) that we
don’t need to add anything in the first place.
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https://m
aticians want to say two sets are
> equal, they say they are equal, they don't use the term “coextensive”.
Sure, but in math, just as in Python, a set is never equal to a list (with a
tiny foundations asterisk that isn’t relevant, but I’ll mention it below).
So when mathematicians
On 23/03/2020 23:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 02:05:49PM +, Rob Cliffe via Python-ideas wrote:
s = set("a")
t = list("aa")
s.issubset(t)
True
s.issuperset(t)
True
but it would be misleading IMO to say that s and t are in some sense
equ
ible that some peoplehave workflows that need versioned
> executables, rather than simply using absolute paths or the launcher).
The obvious exception is exactly the one the OP has: they work primarily in
Cygwin, but use native Windows rather than Cygwin Python, so it’s Cygwin bash
scripts (and
> buf += "foo"
> print(buf)
>
> An alternative is to use a buffer-like object explicitly designed for
> incremental updates, which for Python is io.StringIO:
It’s usually an even better alternative to just put the strings into a list of
strings (or to write a generator that yie
specific, not guaranteed, and
not accessible from Python even in CPython.)
And, even if that were a good idea for implementation reasons, why should the
user care? If they need a mutable string, why do they care whether you give
them one that inherits from or delegates to a StringIO instead of a
xamples, it’s hard not to call the string concatenation optimization a win.
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want to build it yourself, I doubt it’s possible to make a pure-Python
version that’s efficient enough for real use in CPython; you’d probably need a
C accelerator just to avoid the cost of boxing and unboxing between ints and
single-char strings for most operations. However, you probably coul
if there's io.StringIO
> in the first place?
Because io.StringIO does _not_ need to do that. It’s documented to act like a
TextIOWrapper around a BytesIO. And the pure-Python implementation (as used by
some non-CPython implementations of Python) is actually implemented that way:
https://gi
.
So, if this memory issue makes join unacceptable, it makes your optimization
even more unacceptable.
And thinking about portable code makes it even worse. Your code might be run
under CPython and take even more memory, or it might be run under a different
Python implementation where StringIO is n
On Mar 30, 2020, at 22:03, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 01:59:42PM -0700, Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas
> wrote:
>
> [...]
>> When you call getvalue() it then builds a Py_UCS4*
>> representation that’s in this case 4x the size of the fin
ants but
don’t intern small ints, “is 1” will be true for a value that the compiler
could reduce to a constant, but false for one that had to be computed at
runtime). If you’re writing code like this because you expect that all Python
interpreters will always have this optimization, your code is
, Mrs.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 31, 2020, at 10:21, Gerrit Holl wrote:
>
> (needs a sponsor)
>
> latest version at
> https://github.com/gerritholl/peps/blob/animal-friendly/pep-.rst
>
> PEP:
> Title: Retire animal-unfriendly language
> Author: Gerrit
’t get silly.
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ants or a tiger you were dealing with. Which is why we
should all hunt and eat redwood trees rather than cows or bananas. And don’t
even get me started on sunflowers.
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just
in theoretical possible implementations of Python but in multiple real life
implementations, including CPython.
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https
re elegant.
It might help your proposal to just show a small concrete and realistic example
of how this workaround parallels the workaround for not having for/else, and
how your proposed change would let you improve your code’s readability in
exactly the same way as for/else. At least for me,
uot;.
>
> Should we deprecate the word "wheel" as well, since it's a
> reference to cheese?
If the Cheese Shop doesn’t actually have any cheese in stock, is it actually
offensive to cows?
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nsequence of the accident that
our script has only two classes of letter case. I’m not aware of any human
scripts that have three or more classes, but do we really want a language
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honistas, but word "clear"
> is an exaggeration. From those who don't like it, the usual word is
> "ugly", though I've seen more vivid epithets, like "repulsive":
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2006-January/403480.html
>
>
t do you get? You presumably don’t even need to look that up or try
it out. It would be pretty confusing if it were different without the tuple.
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ht
ge
> package something
> some message
>
I don’t think so. Objects in Python have a str for “human readers” and a repr
that’s more useful for debugging. The repr is nearly always either an
expression you can copy and paste to create an equivalent object, or something
in angle brac
th time and space. Ideally, it should be more readable to people
with a visceral dislike of str.join, and be significantly better in space (by
not retaining all of the input strings for the entire length of the building
process) on all Python implementations, and there should also be an easy
On Apr 2, 2020, at 13:35, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 8:15 PM Andrew Barnert wrote:
>>
>> Why should modules break all of that, and be different from strings, tuples,
>> functions, classes, etc.?
>
> python-ideas is
On Apr 4, 2020, at 12:45, Pete Wicken wrote:
>
>
> Agreed that this could be achieved by a third party library; and probably
> already is - but the ipaddress module in Python could also have been one.
Well, it was. Go read PEP 3144 that added it, and the discussion threads beh
e helpful.
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rm of layer 2 addressing.
I think Python is just following history here. It has nice wrappers for
everything C/POSIX/Sockets exposed, and then it has higher-level libraries for
all the protocols that were really important in the early 90s, and that’s it.
And then it has selectors and asyncio
> On Apr 5, 2020, at 20:12, Stephen J. Turnbull
> wrote:
>
> Andrew Barnert via Python-ideas writes:
>
>> However, I think that a macaddress library could easily be one of
>> the few things that does properly fit in the networking section of
>> the stdlib. It
f course JSON isn’t perfect, as anyone who’s tried to interchange, say, int64
values discovers… but it’s good enough for many applications.)
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ould be creating a simple
> class for something like a REST API and that class having a __json__
> function. Python doesn't need to deserialise the JSON, so you only need one
> half of the story, the half that __json__ would make easier.
For the vast majority of people writing web serv
e pretty cool.
This seems like one of the many things that’s impossible to do for Python
classes with full generality, but pretty easy to do if you only want to support
@dataclass. Either dynamically or statically, in fact. You could even write a
tool that generates dataclasses (statically or
ing bound to something to do with f.
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data according to.
>
> I think generating some amalgamation of JSONLD @context & SHACL and JSON
> schema would be an interesting exercise. You'd certainly want to add more
> information to the generated schema than just the corresponding Python types :
> - type URI(s) that c
e and keep x alive?
Maybe that’s ok. After all, that code doesn’t work in a Python implementation
that doesn’t have stack frame support. Some of the other possibilities might be
more portable, but I don’t know without digging in further.
Or maybe you can add new restrictions to what locals and
On Apr 8, 2020, at 01:18, Wes Turner wrote:
>
> I don't see the value in using JSON to round-trip from Python to the same
> Python code.
>
> External schema is far more useful than embedding part of an ad-hoc nested
> object schema in type annotations that can't
On Apr 8, 2020, at 12:55, Wes Turner wrote:
>
> We should welcome efforts to support linked data in Python.
Fine, but that’s doesn’t meant we should derail every proposal that has
anything to do with JSON by turning it into a proposal for linked data, or
consider a useful proposal
d see if there are any cases where it’s useful, but only with the
restrictions relaxed, and maybe use that as a guide to whether it’s worth
finding a way to aim for looser restrictions in the first place or not.
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ence some member of a struct
at address 1, which means trying to access an int or pointer or whatever at
address 1 or 9 or 17 or whatever. On most platforms, those addresses are going
to be unmapped (and, on some, illegally aligned to boot), so you’ll get a
segfault. This has nothing to do with the G
com/docs/blazingsql
This isn’t relevant here at all. How objects get constructed and manage their
internal storage is completely orthogonal to the how Python manages object
lifetimes.
> … New #DataFrame Interface and when that makes a copy for 2x+ memory use
> - "A dataframe protoco
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