[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 39ea24aaf0e7 by Antoine Pitrou in branch '2.7': s/lightweight/minimal/, as per issue #11379. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/39ea24aaf0e7 New changeset b63258b6eb4d by Antoine Pitrou in branch '3.3': s/lightweight/minimal/, as per issue #11379. htt

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: Fixed, thanks for the patch! -- assignee: docs@python -> ezio.melotti resolution: -> fixed stage: commit review -> committed/rejected status: open -> closed type: performance -> enhancement ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset c2ae1ed03853 by Ezio Melotti in branch '2.7': #11379: rephrase minidom documentation to use the term "minimal" instead of "lightweight". Patch by Éric Araujo. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/c2ae1ed03853 New changeset b9c0e050c935 by Ezio Melotti

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: Sure, feel free to commit this. -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: Someone should go ahead and apply this. Éric, perhaps? -- stage: needs patch -> commit review ___ Python tracker ___ ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: I'm not sure if it's a good idea to keep bikeshedding about this for another two years. Personally, I would prefer having someone with commit rights fix this and be done with it. Eric's last patch looks ok and parts of it went in already, so it's mostly just t

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Any news on this? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://ma

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Changes by Eli Bendersky : -- nosy: -eli.bendersky ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: I’ve been unresponsive of late, sorry, but I’m still here. Will see if I have time tomorrow. -- ___ Python tracker ___ _

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: Any news on this? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://ma

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: I’ll soon have a revised version of my patch to address your feedback. -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ P

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: Éric, what else would you like to do here? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing li

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Oh, right, I missed that part. I also think that a visible note is better. And +1 for "W3C DOM interface". -- ___ Python tracker ___ __

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: Éric, I'm ok with replacing "lightweight" by "minimal", unless others have objections. Regarding the specifics of the minidom-desc-2.diff patch: "proficient with the DOM" I'm not sure "the DOM" is semantically correct. "the W3C-DOM interface" is more prec

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: > FYI, note that http://wiki.python.org/moin/MiniDom says this about > minidom: “slow and very memory hungry DOM implementation”. Thanks for the notice; I have now fixed that wording. -- ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: FYI, note that http://wiki.python.org/moin/MiniDom says this about minidom: “slow and very memory hungry DOM implementation”. As you have seen, I have applied my ToC order change. Now in order to commit my s/lightweight/minimal/ change and close this report, ca

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset fc32753feb0a by Éric Araujo in branch '2.7': Move xml.etree higher and xml.parsers.expat lower in the markup ToC. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/fc32753feb0a -- ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset d99c0a4b66f3 by Éric Araujo in branch '3.2': Move xml.etree higher and xml.parsers.expat lower in the markup ToC. http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/d99c0a4b66f3 -- ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: This alternate version of my patch (a) merges the first two paragraphs to make the intro less redundant and heavy, and (b) reorganizes a bit the list of modules in Doc/library/markup.rst to have xml.etree first and pyexpat (less interesting for most people) at t

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Yes, I think that's better. -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe:

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: s/Mininal/Minimal/ in the synopsis -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubsc

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: Right, patch for 3.2. Also edited the module docstring (info taken from the docstring of xml.dom). BTW I really think we could have avoided some verbosity by adding the recommendation to use xml.etree in the first paragraph of Doc/library/xml.dom.minidom.rst.

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: "Minimal" sounds good to me, it also matches the name of the module. -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Py

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > I think I’ve always understood “lightweight” to mean “minimal”. Then how about saying "minimal" instead of "lightweight"? (also, it seems it really means "incomplete" or "partial", which are of course less positive sounding) --

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: I think I’ve always understood “lightweight” to mean “minimal”. xml.dom provides minidom, a basic implementation, pulldom, a different implementation, and other libraries such as 4Dom are full-fledged implementations. So “lightweight” is not a problem to me (b

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: Stefan, frankly I'm not familiar enough with either xml.dom or xml.dom.minidom to have a solid opinion at this point. -- ___ Python tracker ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Thanks Eli. What about the "Lightweight DOM implementation", though? Following Martin's comment that performance characteristics (like "fast", "memory friendly" or "lightweight") should normally not be documented, I'm still suggesting to replace it with a les

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: Committed to 2.7, 3.2 and 3.3 I suppose this issue can be closed now? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset ccd16ad37544 by Eli Bendersky in branch '2.7': Issue #11379: add a note in xml.dom.minidom suggesting to use etree in some cases http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/ccd16ad37544 -- ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Roundup Robot added the comment: New changeset 81e606862a89 by Eli Bendersky in branch '3.2': Issue #11379: add a note in xml.dom.minidom suggesting to use etree in some cases http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/81e606862a89 -- nosy: +python-dev ___ Py

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Raymond Hettinger added the comment: This is a reasonable case for a note. -- nosy: +rhettinger ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bug

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: > > I’m not sure I would use note markup, though (cf. Raymond’s aversion to > littering the doc with note and warning boxes). > I also dislike box littering, but this one seems like a really good fit for a note, since it's completely outside the flow of that doc

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: I’m not sure I would use note markup, though (cf. Raymond’s aversion to littering the doc with note and warning boxes). -- ___ Python tracker ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: I'm attaching a patch for Doc/library/xml.dom.minidom.rst It adds the note as phrased by Stefan, with a tiny wording change to make the first sentence less ambiguous. -- keywords: +patch Added file: http://bugs.python.org/file24686/issue_11379.1.patch

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: The wording in msg152836 is fine with me, in particular as it doesn't make any performance claims. -- ___ Python tracker ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Changes by Ezio Melotti : -- stage: -> needs patch ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: Martin, do you find the wording I quoted (*without* the reference to a more Pythonic API) acceptable? -- ___ Python tracker ___ ___

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: +1 to the suggested wording. -1 to talking about a more pythonic API. (Want a nit? s/W3C-DOM/W3C DOM/) -- ___ Python tracker ___ __

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Senthil Kumaran added the comment: On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 03:42:16AM +, Eli Bendersky wrote: > Any objections? None. The explanation sounds reasonable. -- nosy: +orsenthil ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Changes by Tshepang Lekhonkhobe : -- nosy: +tshepang ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mai

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Eli Bendersky added the comment: IMHO this wording proposed by Stefan: """ [[Note: The xml.dom.minidom module provides an implementation of the W3C-DOM whose API is similar to that in other programming languages. Users who are unfamiliar with the W3C-DOM interface or who would like to write l

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: > "If you have to work with XML, ElementTree is usually the best > choice, because it has a simple API and it's efficient [or whatever]. I still object such a wording, for many reasons. -- ___ Python tracker

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: > xml.dom.minidom is a [-XXX: light-weight] implementation of the Document > Object Model interface. This is ok. > It is intended to be simpler than the full DOM and also > [+XXX: provide a] significantly smaller [+XXX: API]. Doesn't "simpler" here refer to th

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: I started a mailing list thread on the same topic: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/127963 Especially see http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/127963/focus=128162 where I extract a proposal from the discussion. Basically, there shoul

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Hmm, looks like I messed up the last example. I accidentally left in the formatting whitespace, thus growing the file to 6.2 MB. Removing that, I get this for the (now really) 4.5 MB XML file with lots of structure and very little data: Memory usage: 11600 xm

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Changes by Florent Xicluna : -- components: +XML ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe: http://mail.py

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Changes by Florent Xicluna : -- nosy: +flox type: -> performance ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing list Unsubscribe

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Given that the links were generally somewhat dated and used Py2.x instead of the post-PEP393 Py3.3, here is another little benchmark, comparing the parser performance of minidom to lxml.etree (latest), ElementTree and cElementTree (stdlib) in a recent Py3.3 bu

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > I just did a quick Google search for "python minidom benchmark" and found > these: > > http://www.opensourcetutorials.com/tutorials/Server-Side-Coding/Python/xml-matters/page2.html > > http://effbot.org/zone/celementtree.htm#benchmarks > > http://blog.ianb

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Ezio Melotti, 29.11.2011 16:26: >> Seriously, minidom is widely known for being extremely slow and >> extremely memory hungry. And that is backed by basically any benchmark >> that has ever been done on the subject. > > Do you have any link? I just did a quick G

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > My point is that if you say thing like "significantly/several times > higher memory footprint than X" you are basically scaring the users > away from the module. Only those users who know they'll be processing significantly large documents. I don't think "sca

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: > Seriously, minidom is widely known for being extremely slow and > extremely memory hungry. And that is backed by basically any benchmark > that has ever been done on the subject. Do you have any link? My point is that if you say thing like "significantly/seve

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: > I don't think "FUD" is a suitable term for the rather minidom-friendly > wording in my last proposal. Seriously, minidom is widely known for > being extremely slow and extremely memory hungry. And that is backed > by basically any benchmark that has ever been

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: I don't think "FUD" is a suitable term for the rather minidom-friendly wording in my last proposal. Seriously, minidom is widely known for being extremely slow and extremely memory hungry. And that is backed by basically any benchmark that has ever been done o

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Fred L. Drake, Jr. added the comment: Removing "Lightweight" and changing the first paragraph to (something like) :mod:`xml.dom.minidom` is an implementation of the Document Object Model interface. The API is slightly simpler than the full W3C DOM, but the implementation has a significantly hi

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Ezio Melotti added the comment: Usually we don't talk about performance in the doc, and in my personal experience I didn't notice any major difference between the different implementations (but than again I haven't used them much). Talking about the other implementations and their advantages/d

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: I find a factor of an order of magnitude worth mentioning, because it prevents certain kinds of usages. -- ___ Python tracker ___ _

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Éric Araujo added the comment: Is memory footprint something important enough to put in the doc? Ease of use is IMO more important, but then it becomes subjective.. -- nosy: +eric.araujo ___ Python tracker _

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Ok, so, what do we make of this? I proposed improvements to the wording in the documentation, which make it much clearer for users what they are buying into when they start using minidom. I still think that "factually correct" but clearly misleading documentat

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Antoine Pitrou added the comment: Agreed with Stefan's concern. -- nosy: +pitrou ___ Python tracker ___ ___ Python-bugs-list mailing

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: > If that is a real concern, I'd rather reduce the memory footprint of > minidom than put actual performance figures into the documentation > that will likely outdate over time. Personally, I do not think it's worth putting much work into MiniDOM. I'd rather de

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: > It's the tree based API most python users are parsing XML with, > though. So I do not agree that it's comparing apples and oranges, not > at all. It's comparing tree based XML libraries, only one of which is > worth being called "light weight", and that's not

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: It's the tree based API most python users are parsing XML with, though. So I do not agree that it's comparing apples and oranges, not at all. It's comparing tree based XML libraries, only one of which is worth being called "light weight", and that's not the on

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: > What about this phrasing then: > > """ MiniDOM has a smaller memory footprint than some of the other DOM > compliant implementations for Python (such as 4DOM), but uses about > 10x more memory than the faster and simpler xml.etree.cElementTree > module. """

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Stefan Behnel added the comment: Well, I'm not aware of many people who use 4DOM these days, and if that's what it's meant to refer to, maybe that should be made more obvious, because it currently is not at all. Even cDomlette uses only half of the memory according to http://effbot.org/zone/

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

Martin v. Löwis added the comment: -1. The description is factually correct - minidom *does* have a lower footprint than other Python DOM implementations (such as 4DOM). -- nosy: +loewis ___ Python tracker __

[issue11379] Remove "lightweight" from minidom description

New submission from Stefan Behnel : http://docs.python.org/library/xml.dom.minidom.html presents MiniDOM as a "Lightweight DOM implementation". The word "lightweight" is easily misunderstood as meaning "efficient" or "memory friendly". MiniDOM is well known to be neither of the two. The first