On 25 Feb 2021, at 06:30, John Dale wrote:
> since racism is not clearly defined and may not exist
Please kill this thread before more of this fetid feces gets posted.
--
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if
you really make them think, they'll hate you."
plus one for terminating this thread, because
On Thu, 2021-02-25 at 09:33 -0500, micah wrote:
> If people don't like it, please do something productive about
> it, rather than make hundreds of people have to hit their delete key.
Impossible. The only thing I found to work is the opposite of
prod
On 25 Feb 2021, at 5:52, Michael Schumacher wrote:
if these are the final problems mankind has to solve, then we are on a
good way.
I think it's more "low-hanging fruit" than a "final problem." The
problem is a collision of metaphorical usages of "black" and "white" and
it is much simpler to
This discussion was right on track and related to the naming of
variables until this strangeness:
"The Philosophy of Variable Naming with Considerations in the Social
Sciences"
Correcting a fact in mid stream of a legitimately technical discussion
does not justify a non-technical rant.
Del
On 2021-02-24 19:23:18, ghe2001 wrote:
> Any chance of terminating this thread -- my disk is only a terabyte.
+1 for terminating this thread.
> Programmers can call a variable or label whatever they want to. It's one of
> their perks.
>
> And they can change it if they want to. But it's often
Kudos to you Mauricio (great name, btw :)
If we are changing variable names to fight racism, since racism is not
clearly defined and may not exist, we may be making code changes to
fight something that doesn't exist.
"Race" - doesn't exist. You can't point to it?
I love software, though - g
On 25.02.21 13:47, Wietse Venema wrote:
John Dale:
"American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks"
This is the Postfix mailing list. Foolist has been renamed into
Barlist. Stop the non-technical rant, or be deleted.
TBH, you kind of set up yourself for all this discussion
John Dale:
> "American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks"
This is the Postfix mailing list. Foolist has been renamed into
Barlist. Stop the non-technical rant, or be deleted.
Wietse
"American concept that racism starts and ends at affecting blacks"
This is an untrue generalization. It's not racist, but is it bigoted?
If anything, Americans are presently too sensitive to this issue and are
being pressed into making bad short sighted reactive policies.
On 2/24/21 8:36 P
The Native American situation notwithstanding - it's splitting hairs -
the origins of "black balling" predate computer hacking.
For what it's worth, many of the Lakota I know in the area dislike the
term "Native American". They use the term relatives a lot. I like it.
var relative = new Cla
On 2021-02-24 Emmett Culley wrote:
> On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote:
>>
>>> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
>>> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
>>> and variations on those wor
hi,
thanks, we had something to laugh about at our coffee break this morning.
No offense, but if these are the final problems mankind has to solve, then we
are on a good way.
> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowli
On 24 Feb 2021, at 14:57, Emmett Culley wrote:
On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
and variations on those words
>
> however, the "allow" and "deny" clearly say something, while for
> understanding what does "white" and "black" mean, you must have some
> background (or, worse, prejudice).
>
However, those are regular Enlgish words that now get mixed up with the
technology making it harder to communicate w
Is it worth it to fracture the nomenclature of a huge body of software
work .. on a lark? Shouldn't a person lose credibility for doing
something like that so deviant from main stream common sense (colloquial
logic)?
I mean, it's not like we're saying
var nr = new DarkColorsOffendMe();
Wietse Venema wrote:
> Michael Grimm:
>> /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf:
>> unused parameter: respectful_logging=no
>
> I tested the code with the name cut-and-pasted and did not notice
> that the name had a typo.
>
> postfix-3.6-20210224 is uploaded to
Am 24.02.21 um 23:29 schrieb Wietse Venema:
j...@nunyuh.net:
I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the
devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a
forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then
fine - let's "damn the torped
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 4:58 PM Emmett Culley
wrote:
>
> On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
> > On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote:
> >
> >> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
> >> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
> >> a
"...other folks could go take a hike..."
Indeed they could - just as they can now...
"So, whose code is it?"
The 'they' that own it...in this specific case, my guess is Wietse...
"...who organically came to the terms white/black list..."
Or really believe that context truly matters which lead
"the right of devs to use whatever nomenclature they desire"
That's it. That's the thing. I suppose if it was my code and I wanted
to make that change other folks could go take a hike.
So, whose code is it?
If it were my code and I were dead (interesting prospect), I would try
to lay curse
"...should we not consider the class of disallowed out there to be
inherently persecuted..."
Why? Are you suggesting the devs try and precog, Minority Report style,
what nomenclature might in the future be at issue?
“Variable naming is a wide ranging philosophical issue”
It really shouldn’t
If we were to change the nomenclature to something like "disallowed" and
"allowed", should we not consider the class of disallowed out there to
be inherently persecuted? Are we looking at choosing variable names
with no corresponding representation in the dictionary (just in case)?
var lkjsfa
"Let's not do that."
I would wholeheartedly agree...and that was actually my point.
I view this forum as being a place for all things Postfix but only
Postfix - not the possible root-cause nor philosophies behind why
nomenclature might be the way it is.
None of us enjoys a universal right to
j...@nunyuh.net:
> I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the
> devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a
> forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then
> fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and
I've purposefully held off on responding to any of this but if the
devs\list-owners are fine with the community converting this into a
forum about race + software & computer terms, albeit temporarily, then
fine - let's "damn the torpedos & full steam ahead" this baby and get to
work...
We all
On 2/24/21 12:40 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
and variations on those words.
We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak wi
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Wietse Venema wrote:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
and variations on those words.
We had a late start, but it seems Newspeak will be established until 2050
as originall
Michael Grimm:
> /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf:
> unused parameter: respectful_logging=no
I tested the code with the name cut-and-pasted and did not notice
that the name had a typo.
postfix-3.6-20210224 is uploaded to ftp/www.porcupine.org.
Wiet
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 08:31:25PM +0100, Michael Grimm wrote:
> mail> postfix reload
> /usr/local/sbin/postconf: warning: /usr/local/etc/postfix/main.cf:
> unused parameter: respectful_logging=no
> postfix/postfix-script: refreshing the Postfix mail system
That appears to be a
On 24 Feb 2021, at 10:12, Wietse Venema wrote:
> The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes.
> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
> better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
> and variations on those words.
Thank you!
sc
[Sorry Wietse, this mail should have gone to the ML instead to your personal
mail address]
Wietse Venema wrote:
> The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes.
I did upgrade to this version today.
> To keep logging the old form, make the setting "respectful_logging =
> no" per
Any chance of terminating this thread -- my disk is only a terabyte.
Programmers can call a variable or label whatever they want to. It's one of
their perks.
And they can change it if they want to. But it's often helpful for the users
if they make the change backward compatible,
--
Glenn Eng
On 24 Feb 2021, at 12:51, John Dale wrote:
What are we going to do about actual light and actual dark?
There's no reason to stop using "black" and "white" when referring to
things that are in an actual optical brightness sense black (or very
dark) or white (or very light.)
As Wietse said:
Agreed — While my initial gut reaction is jump in and express myself
directly about this change, my better angel (yes, I think I have only
one) compels me to understand (a) this forum is not the right place to
air any perspective for or against this change; (b) it’s done so get
on with it.
Th
The link is in your mind (not mine) and certainly not in non-sentient
software code. Scrubbing language only serves to define and sharpen the
distinction in your mind (not mine) and confuse historical development
of code (this language policing will be committed to some source repo
somewhere w
As 'allowlist' and 'denylist' are self-explaning, this is a valuable change as
it will save time for newbies in future. Independent if any racist background
or not.
Thank you, Wietse!
Am 24. Februar 2021 19:43:22 MEZ schrieb Kenneth Irving :
>Completely agree with Jaroslaw. This is absolutely r
+1
From: owner-postfix-us...@postfix.org on
behalf of Matus UHLAR - fantomas
Sent: February 24, 2021 1:51 PM
To: postfix-users@postfix.org
Subject: Re: Deprecated: white is better than black
>Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze:
>>
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote:
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black.
On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
-1
I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black.
On 24.02.21 19:29, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
-1
I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a
waste of time and effort.
"Blackli
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 07:29:18PM +0100, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
> > Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
> > better than black.
>
> -1
FWIW, I also would not have made these changes, and personally think
they do more harm than good. That said, the best thing at this p
Completely agree with Jaroslaw. This is absolutely ridiculous and a waste
of time.
best regards
Kenneth
On Wed, 24 Feb 2021, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote:
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze:
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black.
-1
I
Dnia 24.02.2021 o godz. 12:12:12 Wietse Venema pisze:
> Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
> better than black.
-1
I already wrote when there was a discussion about it that changing this is a
waste of time and effort.
"Blacklist" and "whitelist" terms never had anyt
What are we going to do about actual light and actual dark?
On 2/24/21 10:37 AM, Curtis Maurand wrote:
I totally agree with this and I am going to work to scrub the prior terminology
from my system.
Thank you, Wietse
—Curtis
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 24, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Wietse Venema
If it helps with others, the SA project uses WelcomeList and BlockList
so you don't have to change acronyms like RBL. Some slides from a talk
at
https://mcgrail.com/downloads/DevFest%202020%20-%20Removing%20Racially%20Charged%20Language%20from%20Technology%20Speaker%20Presentation%20GDG%20Devfe
I totally agree with this and I am going to work to scrub the prior terminology
from my system.
Thank you, Wietse
—Curtis
Sent from my iPhone
> On Feb 24, 2021, at 12:12 PM, Wietse Venema wrote:
>
> The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes.
>
>Wietse
>
> Postfix ve
The following is from the postfix-3.6-20210221 release notes.
Wietse
Postfix version 3.6 deprecates terminology that implies white is
better than black. Instead, Postfix prefers 'allowlist', 'denylist',
and variations on those words.
Noel Jones assisted with the initial transition.
Cha
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