Re: [GENERAL] absolute or relative updates

2005-11-16 Thread A. Kretschmer
am 16.11.2005, um 18:52:25 +0200 mailte [EMAIL PROTECTED] folgendes: > > I want to write a trigger that logs any changes that are made to a row. I You ivent the wheel the second time ;-) http://pgfoundry.org/projects/tablelog/ > have the old an new row values, but I am more interested in know

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That ORDER BY is added by PG -- it's not part of my view when I define > it. I assume PG adds that so it can do the DISTINCT ON. Well, then you're even further from following the protocol for DISTINCT ON. You *must* provide an ORDER BY to get reliable r

Re: [GENERAL] Trouble with recursive trigger

2005-11-16 Thread Justin Hawkins
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 07:43:16AM +0100, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: > Just a thought, maybe it has something to do with the UPDATE updating a > row where the trigger is running. So, think of the execution like > this: > > # DELETE FROM post WHERE id = 3002; > trigger> DELETE FROM post WHERE p

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Bill Moseley
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 07:48:06PM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: > Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > [ strange behavior ] > > Oh, duh, it's not a PG bug: the problem is that the view is > underspecified. You have > > SELECT DISTINCT ON (class.id) > ... a bunch of stuff ... > FROM ...

Re: [GENERAL] Does PG Support Unicode on Windows?

2005-11-16 Thread Michael Glaesemann
On Nov 17, 2005, at 10:12 , CSN wrote: Is there any truth to what this guy is saying? [cut hard-to-read quotes regarding support for UTF8 in PostgreSQL on Windows] According to the release notes for 8.1: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.1/interactive/release.html#RELEASE-8-1 * Allow

[GENERAL] Does PG Support Unicode on Windows?

2005-11-16 Thread CSN
Is there any truth to what this guy is saying? > > On the other hand, Postgresql claims that "Windows does not support > > Unicode" and you can't have Unicode fields on postgresql on Windows. > > This is a big mistake. See: > > http://pginstaller.projects.postgresql.org/faq/FAQ_windows.html > >

Re: [GENERAL] Incomplete Startup Packet

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Mott Leroy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > How can I go about tracking down the source of these? I think if you turn on log_connections, you'll at least get log entries showing what machine(s) the bad connection attempts are coming from. Not sure if that'll be enough for you. > My db clients are JD

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [ strange behavior ] Oh, duh, it's not a PG bug: the problem is that the view is underspecified. You have SELECT DISTINCT ON (class.id) ... a bunch of stuff ... FROM ... a bunch of tables ... ORDER BY class.id; The difficulty with this is t

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Guy Rouillier
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I take it as a given that if suspended transactions were ever to > appear people would expect a system table that let them list > suspended transactions and how when they were suspended. Otherwise > they just wouldn't be very manageable. Regarding web applications,

Re: [GENERAL] Incomplete Startup Packet

2005-11-16 Thread Mott Leroy
Tom Lane wrote: It's impossible to believe that that's even slightly related. "Incomplete startup packet" means that you've got broken client-side software, or perhaps that something is portscanning you. You sure you weren't seeing those beforehand? I'm not certain I wasn't seeing those befo

Re: [GENERAL] Incomplete Startup Packet

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Mott Leroy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Some time ago, I accidentally did a kill -9 on the postmaster (yes, I > know, I know), when trying to kill -9 one of the child processes (er, > yeah, probably bad too). This turned out to be pretty bad for us. It put > the database in a bad state. I had t

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Joshua D. Drake
I appreciate what you're trying to do. At the same time, why do you think your customers will be more willing to go for John's Database than some community product called PostgreSQL? (And yes, I suspect there _are_ such people.) That's easy. The same reason people used to buy Mammoth Postgre

[GENERAL] Incomplete Startup Packet

2005-11-16 Thread Mott Leroy
Some time ago, I accidentally did a kill -9 on the postmaster (yes, I know, I know), when trying to kill -9 one of the child processes (er, yeah, probably bad too). This turned out to be pretty bad for us. It put the database in a bad state. I had to run some kind of hacky command (I don't reca

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Greg Sabino Mullane
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > I appreciate what you're trying to do. At the same time, why do you > think your customers will be more willing to go for John's Database > than some community product called PostgreSQL? (And yes, I suspect > there _are_ such people.) Maybe he i

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:09:51AM -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > So, is it a little shady to want to slide PostgreSQL in under the > radar? I'm simply trying to downplay what it is...it's my take that > what they don't know won't hurt them. I appreciate what you're trying to do. At the s

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Vivek Khera
On Nov 16, 2005, at 4:17 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 14:19:28 -0500, Vivek Khera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: if they're poking around the process table, just change the name of the postmaster executable and the socket it creates to "johnsdb" or some such. I think you

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Bruno Wolff III
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 14:19:28 -0500, Vivek Khera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > if they're poking around the process table, just change the name of > the postmaster executable and the socket it creates to "johnsdb" or > some such. I think you need to be careful with that. The last time I

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Greg Stark
"Guy Rouillier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Having worked with web-based, transaction-oriented applications for > almost 10 years now, I don't see any justification for holding an actual > database transaction open between HTTP requests. As Tom correctly > points out, there is no guarantee wha

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Chris Browne
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > There are a few obstinate anti-open source customers though, that > prevent my plan from moving forward. They've bought into whatever > hype they've read and just simply say no. Now, that said, they're > fairly non-technical and probably had never heard of PostgreSQL > b

Re: [GENERAL] Cursors or Offset, Limit?

2005-11-16 Thread Andrew Sullivan
On Tue, Nov 15, 2005 at 01:44:32PM -0500, Jerry LeVan wrote: > > What are some of the tradeoffs between using a cursor and using the > limit/offset method of selecting rows to display? OFFSET actually has to scan all the preceding rows every time (plus to get it consistently, you need to do an OR

[GENERAL] absolute or relative updates

2005-11-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I want to write a trigger that logs any changes that are made to a row. I have the old an new row values, but I am more interested in knowing if the update was absolute "UPDATE table SET col = 3" or relative "UPDATE table SET col = col + 2". Is the a way (any way) to access this type of inform

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Guy Rouillier
Greg Stark wrote: > Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> Greg Stark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >>> Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: What this would actually be useful for is a fair question though --- what's it do that you don't have now? >> >>> I think what they want to do is

Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL compatible with Real Time Linux ?

2005-11-16 Thread Jaime Casanova
On 11/16/05, Murdia, Swati -Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > I want to install PostgreSQL on a board running a Real Time embedded variant > of Linux: TimeSys Linux > Is PostgreSQL compatible with this version of Linux? > Has anyone installed it on a real time- embedded platform before? >

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Vivek Khera
On Nov 16, 2005, at 1:09 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: There are a few obstinate anti-open source customers though, that prevent my plan from moving forward. They've bought into whatever hype they've read and just simply say no. Now, that said, they're fairly non-technic

Re: [GENERAL] PostgreSQL compatible with Real Time Linux ?

2005-11-16 Thread Piccarello, James (James)
Title: Message I haven't run it on an embedded system but I have run it at real-time linux priority. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Murdia, Swati -GilSent: Wednesday, November 16, 2005 1:28 PMTo: pgsql-general@postgresql.o

Re: [GENERAL] Bug with index-usage?

2005-11-16 Thread Sebastian Böck
Tom Lane wrote: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_B=F6ck?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I patched my 8.1 installation with the following changes: http://www-new.commandprompt.com/projects/public/pgsql/changeset/23461 The error described above doesn't exist any more, but it's still buggy. Yup, you'

[GENERAL] Call for trace_sort output/details

2005-11-16 Thread Simon Riggs
I'm interested in any performance reports for long running sort runs in 8.1, as background information to improving sort performance for 8.2. You'll need to enable the trace_sort parameter. If you could provide all of the following, that would be most helpful 1. the log output relating to the tr

Re: [GENERAL] locked backend

2005-11-16 Thread Greg Stark
Csaba Nagy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The situation (diagnosed via pg_stat_activity): one table was locked by > an update, a VACUUM ANALYZE was running for the same table (triggered by > autovacuum), and a handful of inserts were waiting on the same table. > After some checking around (see bel

Re: [GENERAL] locked backend

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Csaba Nagy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The situation (diagnosed via pg_stat_activity): one table was locked by > an update, a VACUUM ANALYZE was running for the same table (triggered by > autovacuum), and a handful of inserts were waiting on the same table. Updates do not block inserts, and neit

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Ben
Education is the best way to go. How are you going to slide in postgres? "Hey guys, we can get rid of all your diverse databases and replace them with this black box I found here." Sooner or later your anti-OSS friends are going to find out you tricked them, and what happens then? If your clie

[GENERAL] PostgreSQL compatible with Real Time Linux ?

2005-11-16 Thread Murdia, Swati -Gil
Title: Message Hi,   I want to install PostgreSQL on a board running a Real Time embedded variant of Linux: TimeSys Linux Is PostgreSQL compatible with this version of Linux? Has anyone installed it on a real time- embedded platform before?   Thanks in advance. Swati      

[GENERAL] PostgreSQL compatible with Real Time Linux ?

2005-11-16 Thread Murdia, Swati -Gil
Title: Message Hi,   I want to install PostgreSQL on a board running a Real Time embedded variant of Linux: TimeSys Linux Is PostgreSQL compatible with this version of Linux? Has anyone installed it on a real time- embedded platform before?   Thanks in advance.   Swati       **

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread john.bender
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:20:26 -0800 Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >The license may allow it, but you really need a fair amount of >chutzpah >to expect that people help you with it ... Hah...I certainly agree. Keep in mind though...we're not actually selling them the database. It's not my

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Greg Stark
Martijn van Oosterhout writes: > They make take less memory but they take many more resources. Backend > don't take locks by themselves, transactions do. And backends have transactions implicitly. The point here is that if you're going to suspend transactions by leaving idle backends around that

[GENERAL] PHP PDO functions

2005-11-16 Thread Yonatan Ben-Nes
Hi all, After searching for a framework which work with PostgreSQL & PHP I've found Framewerk (http://svn.framewerk.org/) which seem to fit my needs, the only problem that I've found is that it use the PDO functions. Now maybe I'm wrong but I understood that database abstraction layers like

[GENERAL] locked backend

2005-11-16 Thread Csaba Nagy
Hi all, I've had today a strange lockup on our postgres data base. Postgres 8.0.3 Debian GNU/Linux 3.1 autovacuum set up The situation (diagnosed via pg_stat_activity): one table was locked by an update, a VACUUM ANALYZE was running for the same table (triggered by autovacuum), and a handful of

[GENERAL] PG 8.1 on Dual XEON with FreeBSD 6.0

2005-11-16 Thread Philippe Lang
Hi, The FreeBSD 6.0 SMP Kernel recognizes my two XEONS as 4 CPUs. A single postgresql query, as I could see in the top utility, can use a maximum of 25% of CPU time, since it runs on one single virtual CPU, which means for me "half of a XEON". Is that correct? If yes, is there a way to change th

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > In our effort to distribute PostgreSQL to our customers, our higher > ups would like to reduce the visibility that it is indeed > PostgreSQL for a number of reasons at a few of our customer sites > (particularly because these particular customers are very wary of >

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Scott Marlowe
On Wed, 2005-11-16 at 11:05, Bruce Momjian wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Guys, > > > > In our effort to distribute PostgreSQL to our customers, our higher > > ups would like to reduce the visibility that it is indeed > > PostgreSQL for a number of reasons at a few of our customer sites

Re: [GENERAL] Tsearch2: casting text to tsquery

2005-11-16 Thread Oleg Bartunov
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Alexander Presber wrote: Am 16.11.2005 um 13:52 schrieb Oleg Bartunov: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Alexander Presber wrote: Hello, I have a question that arose while using tsearch on a large database of book information. In order to inject unstemmed + stemmed versions of s

Re: [GENERAL] Bug with index-usage?

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_B=F6ck?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I patched my 8.1 installation with the following changes: > http://www-new.commandprompt.com/projects/public/pgsql/changeset/23461 > The error described above doesn't exist any more, but it's still > buggy. Yup, you're right :-(. L

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Greg Stark
Tom Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > This could be useful if you want to have X pending database transactions > > and Y max concurrent database connections, where X is significantly greater > > than Y (magnitudes higher?). > > I don't think the prepared-xacts facility has the performance t

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Martijn van Oosterhout
On Thu, Nov 17, 2005 at 12:29:25AM +0800, Lincoln Yeoh wrote: > MVCC-style transactions that are not limited by/to database connections. > > This could be useful if you want to have X pending database transactions > and Y max concurrent database connections, where X is significantly greater > th

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:53:21AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: >> Bizarre. What are the datatypes of the columns being joined on? If >> they're string types, what's your database locale and encoding? > The primary keys are all SERIAL, and the FKs are integer

Re: [GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread Bruce Momjian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Guys, > > In our effort to distribute PostgreSQL to our customers, our higher > ups would like to reduce the visibility that it is indeed > PostgreSQL for a number of reasons at a few of our customer sites > (particularly because these particular customers are very wa

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Lincoln Yeoh writes: > At 11:27 PM 11/15/2005 -0500, Tom Lane wrote: >> That said, it seems to me that the prepared-xacts infrastructure could >> possibly support a separate "suspend transaction" and "resume >> transaction" facility, if anyone wants to do the legwork to make it >> happen. What th

[GENERAL] Rebranding PostgreSQL

2005-11-16 Thread john.bender
Guys, In our effort to distribute PostgreSQL to our customers, our higher ups would like to reduce the visibility that it is indeed PostgreSQL for a number of reasons at a few of our customer sites (particularly because these particular customers are very wary of open source). I know the lice

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Bill Moseley
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 10:53:21AM -0500, Tom Lane wrote: > Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > The first plan below returns the correct number of rows, the second plan > > does > > not. These are after I did the reindex, btw. > > Bizarre. What are the datatypes of the columns being jo

Re: [GENERAL] PREPARE TRANSACTION and webapps

2005-11-16 Thread Lincoln Yeoh
At 11:27 PM 11/15/2005 -0500, Tom Lane wrote: That said, it seems to me that the prepared-xacts infrastructure could possibly support a separate "suspend transaction" and "resume transaction" facility, if anyone wants to do the legwork to make it happen. What this would actually be useful for i

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
Bill Moseley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The first plan below returns the correct number of rows, the second plan does > not. These are after I did the reindex, btw. Bizarre. What are the datatypes of the columns being joined on? If they're string types, what's your database locale and encodi

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Bill Moseley
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 03:42:19PM +0100, Andreas Seltenreich wrote: > How does the query plan change when you make those changes? If it only > occurs if a certain index is used, it might be corrupt (=> REINDEX). I did a "reindex database ws2;" and no change. I'm not very good at reading the quer

Re: [GENERAL] installation(pg_depend) problem

2005-11-16 Thread Tom Lane
HS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > creating template1 database in /usr/local/Robust/pgsql/data/base/1 ... ok > initializing pg_shadow ... ok > enabling unlimited row size for system tables ... ok > initializing pg_depend ... cannot connect : Connection refused > child process exited with exit code 1

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted) result-set before returning the first row?

2005-11-16 Thread Martijn van Oosterhout
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 03:33:10PM +0100, Thies C. Arntzen wrote: > my question is more in the line of > > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2005-01/msg00247.php > > whereby my special case is all about beeing able to provide an > [possible inaccuate] count for a query if possible: m

Re: [GENERAL] Wrong rows selected with view

2005-11-16 Thread Andreas Seltenreich
Bill Moseley writes: > PostgreSQL 7.4.8 on i486-pc-linux-gnu, compiled by GCC cc (GCC) 4.0.2 > 20050816 (prerelease) (Debian 4.0.1-5) > > Hopefully this is something simple -- I assume it's a problem with my > SQL. But it looks really weird to me at this late hour. > > I have some tables for man

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted) result-set before returning the first row?

2005-11-16 Thread Thies C. Arntzen
Am 16.11.2005 um 14:49 schrieb Martijn van Oosterhout: i understand that postgres has to read every row from the heap to make  sure that they are all still valid and count. but from my understanding  query (a) would have something like an uncorrected count (somewhere  internally) for the whole quer

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted) result-set before returning the first row?

2005-11-16 Thread Martijn van Oosterhout
On Wed, Nov 16, 2005 at 01:23:08PM +0100, Thies C Arntzen wrote: > hi, > > i have some system where i show pages results on a web-page - the query > that returns the paged result looks like this: > > (table has a few hundred thousand rows, result-set is ~3) > > a) select asset.asset_id, ass

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted)

2005-11-16 Thread Richard Huxton
Thies C. Arntzen wrote: Am 16.11.2005 um 14:07 schrieb Richard Huxton: You don't say what applicaton language you are using, but most offer a pg_num_rows() interface which tells you how many results are in the recordset you have fetched. my query uses LIMIT and OFFSET - so pg_num_rows wi

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted) result-set before returning the first row?

2005-11-16 Thread Thies C. Arntzen
Am 16.11.2005 um 14:07 schrieb Richard Huxton:You don't say what applicaton language you are using, but most offer a pg_num_rows() interface which tells you how many results are in the recordset you have fetched. my query uses LIMIT and OFFSET - so pg_num_rows will return what i specify in LIMIT (o

Re: [GENERAL] Tsearch2: casting text to tsquery

2005-11-16 Thread Alexander Presber
Am 16.11.2005 um 13:52 schrieb Oleg Bartunov: On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Alexander Presber wrote: Hello, I have a question that arose while using tsearch on a large database of book information. In order to inject unstemmed + stemmed versions of searchstrings into a query we want to cast an

Re: [GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted)

2005-11-16 Thread Richard Huxton
Thies C Arntzen wrote: i would be interested in getting this uncorrected count "after sort" but "before first row" in query (a). so in a fresh DB with no updates/deletes this would be the correct count, and i could avoid the very expensive (b). You don't say what applicaton language you ar

Re: [GENERAL] Tsearch2: casting text to tsquery

2005-11-16 Thread Oleg Bartunov
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005, Alexander Presber wrote: Hello, I have a question that arose while using tsearch on a large database of book information. In order to inject unstemmed + stemmed versions of searchstrings into a query we want to cast an expression of type text to tsquery. Unfortunately

[GENERAL] shouldn't postgres know the numer of rows in a (sorted) result-set before returning the first row?

2005-11-16 Thread Thies C Arntzen
hi, i have some system where i show pages results on a web-page - the query that returns the paged result looks like this: (table has a few hundred thousand rows, result-set is ~3) a) select asset.asset_id, asset.found_time from asset.asset WHERE found_time > 1130926914 AND pool_id in (1

[GENERAL] Tsearch2: casting text to tsquery

2005-11-16 Thread Alexander Presber
Hello, I have a question that arose while using tsearch on a large database of book information. In order to inject unstemmed + stemmed versions of searchstrings into a query we want to cast an expression of type text to tsquery. Unfortunately SELECT 'word'::tsquery (where the literal

Re: [GENERAL] Bug with index-usage?

2005-11-16 Thread Sebastian Böck
Tom Lane wrote: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_B=F6ck?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I get unpredictibale results selecting from a view depending on index-usage. It's not actually *using* the indexes, although presence of the indexes does seem to be needed to trigger the bug: regression=# explain

Re: [GENERAL] invalid UTF-8 byte sequence detected

2005-11-16 Thread Markus Wollny
Hi! > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: Bruce Momjian [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. November 2005 19:46 > An: Markus Wollny > Cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org > Betreff: Re: [GENERAL] invalid UTF-8 byte sequence detected > > > I am also confused how invalid UTF8 se