On Fri, 04 May 2001 15:05:12 -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
>Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
>the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
>angle characters) as an alternative to $foo\Q[1] if the user's got the
>characters han
> : This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
> : just like the current "while ()" magic we all know and occasionally
> : love. I'd expect $FOO.readln (or something less Pascalish) to do an
> : explicit readline to a variable other than $_
>
> It would be $FOO.next, b
I thought they were joking, but my co-workers have started using the
--i-am-a-dummy command line flag on MySQL's SQL shell.
"A useful startup option for beginners is --safe-mode (or
--i-am-a-dummy for users that has [sic] at some time done a DELETE
FROM table_name but forgot the WHERE clause."
Excuse me, I'm going to ramble a bit about traffic lights and see if
something interesting falls out.
I was riding to work today and started thinking about the trouble we
were having with string concatination (no, this isn't another concat
proposal) and how the basic problem is that we've run ou
> Horrors is right. The default perl5 behaviour is *useful*. I use the
%b=(%a,%c)
> metaphor all of the time.
>
> Why not just keep it simple? And perl5-ish. Two contexts, scalar and list,
> hashes NOT a context of its own.
I agree. But what to do with:
(%a, %b) = (%c, %d);
Surely that shoul
At 03:00 PM 05-04-2001 +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:51:53AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> > And btw . . . Wouldn't
> >
> > $thing has property
> >
> > make more sense than
> >
> > $thing is property
>
>"$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true"
>>$a = @b;
>>
>>2. Pull a reference to @b (like Perl5's "$a = \@b")
>
> Yep. Scalar context eval of arrays, hashes, and subs produces a reference.
Perfect.
>> Similarly, how about:
>>
>>%c = @d;
>>
>> Does this:
>>
>>1. Create a hash w/ alt
* Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [05/04/2001 15:51]:
>
> Oddly enough, varying the number of traffic lights can effect
> efficiency. By over-regulating you can choke off traffic. Constant
> fiddling with the setups and timings, trying to control each and every
> intersection to maximize t
From: Larry Wall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Richard Proctor writes:
> : In Apocalypse 2, \Q is being used for two things, and I
> : believe this may be ambiguious.
> :
> : It has the current \Quote meaning admitibly \Q{oute} it is
> : also being proposed for a null token disambiguate context.
> I'm interested in what happens with interactions:
>
>$a = @b;
>
> Does this:
>
>1. Get the length (doesn't seem to make sense now)
No. length(@b) or @b.length() for that.
>2. Pull a reference to @b (like Perl5's "$a = \@b")
Yep. Scalar context eval of a
At 11:10 AM 5/4/2001 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
>Larry Wall writes:
>: Richard Proctor writes:
>: : In Apocalypse 2, \Q is being used for two things, and I believe this
>may be
>: : ambiguious.
>: :
>: : It has the current \Quote meaning admitibly \Q{oute} it is also being
>: : proposed for a null
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:02:14PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> > While perhaps inconsistent, I'd really rather it did #2. Here's the
> > basic argument... compare how often you dup a filehandle with how
> > often you read from one. Duping is swamped by several orders of
> > magnitude. Dup with
First off, before I forget to mention it, nice job on Apoc2 Larry! You are
the man. I know alot of us on p6l can seem like harsh critics at times, but
it's only because we love Perl so much. ;-)
Anyways, in addition to the $file.next stuff, I'm curious about a few
clarifications on the new semant
On 5/4/01 11:09 PM, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> The real trick is what to do with these:
Note: stabbing wildly here... :)
> %a = (%b, %c);
%a = (stringify(\%b) => \%c); # Perl 5-ish
%a = (%b.str => %c); # Perl 6 equiv.
> %d = (@e, @f);
%d = (stringify(\@e) => \@f); # Perl 5-ish
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:23:12PM -0400, John Siracusa wrote:
> On 5/4/01 11:09 PM, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> > The real trick is what to do with these:
>
> Note: stabbing wildly here... :)
>
> > %a = (%b, %c);
>
> %a = (stringify(\%b) => \%c); # Perl 5-ish
> %a = (%b.str => %c);
On 5/4/01 11:47 PM, Edward Peschko wrote:
> Horrors is right. The default perl5 behaviour is *useful*. I use the
> %b=(%a,%c)
> metaphor all of the time.
I believe you can get the Perl 5 functionality by throwing a few *
characters in there somewhere...
> Why not just keep it simple?
Based on A
At 02:46 PM 5/4/2001 +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:20:13AM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > Building a good sandbox with resource limits on a VMS system is trivial. I
> > expect it may even be easier with IBM's big iron OSes.
>
>I'm sure it is. I'm just worried about h
Dan Sugalski writes:
: That's cool. I was just thinking it might not be a bad idea for us to set=20
: some equivalencies up in advance. If not, that's fine too. (I'll just slip=
: =20
: them in while you're not looking... :)
Hmm. Harks back to the colonial era: "I claim these brackets in the
nam
On 5/5/01 12:06 AM, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> Maybe we need a way to say "flatten these together".
> I'm going to throw out a new ":" op here:
[snip]
> Hmmm... I kinda like that... Am I missing anything?
Maybe the fact that Larry's already claimed the colon? :)
-John
As a . doubter form the earlier threads, I'd just like to say that Apoc. 2
has gone a long way towards making me feel better about . as the method call
thingie...both by explaining all the neat things . does in Perl 6, and by
avoiding the potentially distressing introduction of the replacement str
> Maybe we need a new flattening operator. I don't think the proposed := by
> itself would do everything we need to do. Maybe we need a way to say
> "flatten these together". I'm going to throw out a new ":" op here:
>
>%a = (%b, %c); # same as %a = %b
>%a = (%b : %c);# fl
At 07:56 PM 5/4/2001 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
>Nathan Wiger writes:
>: > : This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
>: > : just like the current "while ()" magic we all know and occasionally
>: > : love. I'd expect $FOO.readln (or something less Pascalish) to do an
>
At 06:40 PM 5/4/2001 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
>Dan Sugalski writes:
>: That's cool. I was just thinking it might not be a bad idea for us to
>: set some equivalencies up in advance. If not, that's fine too. (I'll just
>: slip them in while you're not looking... :)
>
>Hmm. Harks back to the coloni
Nathan Wiger writes:
: > : This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
: > : just like the current "while ()" magic we all know and occasionally
: > : love. I'd expect $FOO.readln (or something less Pascalish) to do an
: > : explicit readline to a variable other than $_
> We do have to worry about the C loop control function though.
> It's possible that in
>
> FOO: while (1) {
> next FOO if /foo/;
> ...
> }
>
> the C label is actually being recognized as a pseudo-package
> name! The loop could well be an object whose full name is C.
> Or something like t
> : also - why does it have to be tied to perl (in name) at all?
>
> Er, because we're writing it?
>
> : I like the idea
> : that it would *not* be tied to perl, ie: it would be more generic if it was
> : not named after it.
>
> Well, the fact that Tcl and Tk both start with T didn't stop pe
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> I'm wondering what this will do?
>
>$thingy = $STDIN;
>
> This seems to have two possibilities:
>
>1. Make a copy of $STDIN
>
>2. Read a line from $STDIN
While perhaps inconsistent, I'd really rather it did #2. Here'
Has anyone suggested "Oyster", or is that too obvious?
__
Matt Youell - "Think different, just like everyone else."
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.youell.com/matt/
> While perhaps inconsistent, I'd really rather it did #2. Here's the
> basic argument... compare how often you dup a filehandle with how
> often you read from one. Duping is swamped by several orders of
> magnitude. Dup with $fh = $STDIN.copy; (or whatever). $line =
> $STDIN.next should still
From: "Michael G Schwern" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Nathan Wiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 9:46 PM
> On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> > I'm wondering what this will do?
> >$thingy = $STDIN;
> > This seems to have two possibilities:
> >1.
From: "Nathan Wiger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Apoc2 - concerns
> You know, I hear what you're saying, but it really makes the little hairs
on
> my neck stand up. Just imaging trying to teach this:
>$a = $b;# assignment or
Dan Sugalski writes:
: Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
: the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
: angle characters) as an alternative to $foo\Q[1] if the user's got the
: characters handy?
Actually, my first thought
Michael G Schwern wrote:
> "$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true".
But the general form, something like
$thing is a_property
or
$thing is a_behavior
flows considerably worse, IMHO.
--
John Porter
It's so mysterious, the land of tears.
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 12:32:40PM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
> Since it's something underlying Perl, I'd suggest a decrement of
> "Perl", which would of course be "Perk". The Java engine would have
> to be "Perj", I guess, which seems fitting somehow.
Shouldn't the Java engine be "Perk" (or perha
At 11:33 PM 5/4/2001 +0200, Bart Lateur wrote:
>On Fri, 04 May 2001 15:05:12 -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
>
> >Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
> >the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
> >angle characters) as an alternativ
On Thu, 03 May 2001 22:14:47 -0500, David L. Nicol wrote:
>I am going to miss doublequoting being the default quoting for
>here strings. I find that to be a very nice optimization and
>would like to know more about the reasoning behind taking it
>away.
I was already panicking when I saw this me
> Too many dead parrot jokes? Too many lousy acronyms?
>
> Platform-Agnostic Rabidly Rapid Object Thrasher
well, it doesn't have to be underlined by an acronym.. and if you don't like
parrot, how about a play on the name w/'polly'?
> Urque.
>
> Since it's something underlying Perl, I'd s
There's a lot of good stuff in Apoc2, but I did have at least one
semantic concern. In it, there's this proposal:
: There is likely to be no need for an explicit input operator in Perl 6,
: and I want the angles for something else. I/O handles are a subclass of
: iterators, and I think general it
Not a problem. \Q means quotemeta, except immediately following
a interpolated identifier. You want to start metaquoting immediately
after a curious interpolation? use \Q\Q.
I have been regularly, since I fingured out how, doing things like
print "the time is now ${\(~~localtime)}[
if we kept <> with their current meaning but added it
as a handier whitespace quoter I would like that.
p5:
@things = < one two three four five>;
_is_ currently a syntax error. In my mind. Not in my 5.005_03.
however, where it appears to behave just like qw does,
except that it does in
@pi are square;
@dogs have fleas;
@talks have stalled;
--
John Porter
At 03:51 PM 5/4/2001 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
>Dan Sugalski writes:
>: Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
>: the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
>: angle characters) as an alternative to $foo\Q[1] if the user's got the
>
David L. Nicol writes:
: Not a problem. \Q means quotemeta, except immediately following
: a interpolated identifier. You want to start metaquoting immediately
: after a curious interpolation? use \Q\Q.
The word "except" should be a red flag that you're trying to define an
exception. We're try
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:05:12PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
> the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
> angle characters) as an alternative to $foo\Q[1] if the user's got the
> chara
Edward Peschko writes:
: also - why does it have to be tied to perl (in name) at all?
Er, because we're writing it?
: I like the idea
: that it would *not* be tied to perl, ie: it would be more generic if it was
: not named after it.
Well, the fact that Tcl and Tk both start with T didn't st
Edward Peschko writes:
: Anyways, my one curiosity that sticks out would be: why \Q as being a way to
: disambiguate? You could do the same thing with:
:
: print "$foo\[1]\n"
: vs
: print "$foo[1]\n";
Not good enough. Consider what this might means:
m/$foo\[a-z]\n/
Is it matching a litera
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> : while ($STDIN) { ... }
> I'm wondering what this will do?
>$thingy = $STDIN;
> This seems to have two possibilities:
>1. Make a copy of $STDIN
This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
jus
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:34:24PM -0500, David L. Nicol wrote:
> @things = < one two three four five>;
>
> _is_ currently a syntax error. In my mind. Not in my 5.005_03.
> however, where it appears to behave just like qw does,
> except that it does interpolation, which qw does not.
And s
> > I'm wondering what this will do?
> >$thingy = $STDIN;
> > This seems to have two possibilities:
> >1. Make a copy of $STDIN
>
> This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
> just like the current "while ()" magic we all know and occasio
[apologies if this is a duplicate, but my mail's been dropping]
There's a lot of good stuff in Apoc2, but I did have at least one
semantic concern. In it, there's this proposal:
: There is likely to be no need for an explicit input operator in Perl 6,
: and I want the angles for something else.
On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 11:13:40AM +1000, Damian Conway wrote:
>> love. I'd expect $FOO.readln (or something less Pascalish) to do an
>
> $STDIN.next is the current plan.
Ah, OK. Crystal ball was a bit cloudy there.
--
Putting heated bricks close to the news.admin.net-abuse.* groups.
From: Buddha Buck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> At 03:00 PM 05-04-2001 +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> >On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:51:53AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> > > And btw . . . Wouldn't
> > >
> > > $thing has property
> > >
> > > make more sense than
> > >
> > > $thing is pro
Dan Sugalski writes:
> I dunno. Color me unconvinced--I do use the <> enough in non-while context
> (and in non-implied while context) to make the whole idea of next feel
> rather... nasty. And $FOO.next? Yuck. Reading lines/records in is one of
> the most fundamental things one can do in a co
Simon Cozens writes:
: On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
: > : while ($STDIN) { ... }
: > I'm wondering what this will do?
: >$thingy = $STDIN;
: > This seems to have two possibilities:
: >1. Make a copy of $STDIN
:
: This one. I see a filehandle in *boole
Those new properties thingies are looking powerful. Does this mean we
can now do:
sub decorate ($obj) {
$obj is ad_hoc_method(sub {...});
}
and expect C<$obj.ad_hoc_method(...)> to call the appropriate
subroutine?
--
Piers Cawley
www.iterative-software.com
Bart Lateur wrote:
> I hardly ever restrict
> myself to word characters in the end delimiter, anyway.
Interesting -- I *always* use "EOF", because that's the
only one vim knows a priori how to highlight correctly. :-/
--
John Porter
It's so mysterious, the land of tears.
On Fri, 4 May 2001 10:49:48 -0500 , Garrett Goebel wrote:
>> > > And btw . . . Wouldn't
>> > >
>> > > $thing has property
>> > >
>> > > make more sense than
>> > >
>> > > $thing is property
>> >
>> >"$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true". Dunno quite
>> >what the oth
Richard Proctor writes:
: In Apocalypse 2, \Q is being used for two things, and I believe this may be
: ambiguious.
:
: It has the current \Quote meaning admitibly \Q{oute} it is also being
: proposed for a null token disambiguate context. As in $foo\Q[bar].
Hmm, yes, that's a problem. I'd for
At 12:03 PM 5/4/2001 +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
>Sure, Unix has ulimits, ipchains, quotas,
>etc... but what about the DumbOS's and the AncientOS's?
You'll want to be careful of the epithets there. For this stuff the world
is really divided into single-user and multi-user OSes. Unix ranks do
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:20:13AM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> Building a good sandbox with resource limits on a VMS system is trivial. I
> expect it may even be easier with IBM's big iron OSes.
I'm sure it is. I'm just worried about having lots of:
if( $^O =~ /VMS/ ) {
do
At 10:49 AM 05-04-2001 -0500, Garrett Goebel wrote:
>From: Buddha Buck [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > At 03:00 PM 05-04-2001 +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> > >On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:51:53AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> > > > And btw . . . Wouldn't
> > > >
> > > > $thing has property
>
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:51:43AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> @pi are square;
Pi are round. Cake are square.
--
Tad McClellan SGML consulting
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Perl programming
Fort Worth, Texas
Michael G Schwern writes:
> "$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true". Dunno quite
> what the other expected uses are.
$foo has truth; # :-)
This leads naturally to:
$foo has the_buddha_nature;
$foo has ten_days_to_live;
$foo has meddled_in_my_affairs_one_too_many_times!
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:56:39PM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
> Nathan Wiger writes:
> : > : This one. I see a filehandle in *boolean* context meaning "read to $_",
> : > : just like the current "while ()" magic we all know and occasionally
> : > : love. I'd expect $FOO.readln (or something less Pas
On Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:46:46AM +0100, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:42:07PM -0700, Nathan Wiger wrote:
> > I'm wondering what this will do?
> >
> >$thingy = $STDIN;
> >
> > This seems to have two possibilities:
> >
> >1. Make a copy of $STDIN
> >
> >2. R
> >:$FH = open "<$file" or die "Can't open $file: $!";
> >:$line = next $FH;
> >:
> >: If so, I can live with that.
> >
> >Yes, that's the reason it's C, and not something more specific
> >like C, which isn't even true in Perl 5 when $/ is mungled.
>
> I dunno. Color me unconvinced--I do u
Larry Wall writes:
: Richard Proctor writes:
: : In Apocalypse 2, \Q is being used for two things, and I believe this may be
: : ambiguious.
: :
: : It has the current \Quote meaning admitibly \Q{oute} it is also being
: : proposed for a null token disambiguate context. As in $foo\Q[bar].
:
: H
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:51:53AM -0400, John Porter wrote:
> And btw . . . Wouldn't
>
> $thing has property
>
> make more sense than
>
> $thing is property
"$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true". Dunno quite
what the other expected uses are.
--
Michael G. Sc
Piers Cawley wrote:
> sub decorate ($obj) {
> $obj is ad_hoc_method(sub {...});
> }
> and expect C<$obj.ad_hoc_method(...)>
And btw . . . Wouldn't
$thing has property
make more sense than
$thing is property
???
"Is" usually implies a generalization link,
not
> Memory limits we should be able to do, assuming Perl 6 continues to
> have its own malloc.
Well... Perl doesn't use it's own malloc *that* widely. E.g. Linux
doesn't, since at least 5.005_03. FreeBSD doesn't. OpenBSD doesn't.
Darwin doesn't. AIX doesn't. IRIX doesn't. Starting from 5.8.0
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:03:05AM -0500, Jarkko Hietaniemi wrote:
> > Memory limits we should be able to do, assuming Perl 6 continues to
> > have its own malloc.
>
> Well... Perl doesn't use it's own malloc *that* widely.
Who knows what Perl 6 will do internally, but we'll probably have some
s
At 10:11 PM 5/4/2001 +0100, Simon Cozens wrote:
>On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:05:12PM -0400, Dan Sugalski wrote:
> > Have you considered allowing Unicode characters as alternatives to some of
> > the less pleasant looking bits? $foo<<1>> (where << and >> are the double
> > angle characters) as an al
In Apocalypse 2, \Q is being used for two things, and I believe this may be
ambiguious.
It has the current \Quote meaning admitibly \Q{oute} it is also being
proposed for a null token disambiguate context. As in $foo\Q[bar].
But if it is spliting $foo and {this is in curlies} this will be taken
On Fri, May 04, 2001 at 09:47:18AM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote:
> Michael G Schwern writes:
> > "$foo has true" doesn't flow as well as "$foo is true". Dunno quite
> > what the other expected uses are.
>
> $foo has truth; # :-)
>
> This leads naturally to:
>
> $foo has the_buddha_natur
> >is => typing, inheritance, etc.
> >has => composition, aggregation, etc.
>
> True, but those are basic OO concepts, which don't neatly apply to
> property-lists (a very old Lisp concept that Perl6 is adopting).
"is" does seem to imply an OO is-a relationship. So lets run
with it!
If $foo i
On Thu, May 03, 2001 at 03:53:53PM -0500, David L. Nicol wrote:
> the larger question remains, is sandboxing something a language
> should support at all, or is it best left to the OS to provide
> a solid chroot facility?
CPANTS will have to try and clunk a sandbox together and I have no
illusion
In lists.projects.perl.language, you wrote:
>It's likely to work better in Perl 6. To mean what it currently
>means, you'll probably have to write something like:
>
>@foo[0] := ;
>
>The colon here is not functioning merely to make the assignment look
>like Pascal. It means, in this case,
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