Re: estimating other people's work (was Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates)

2004-11-04 Thread Stevan Little
Mark, This can be an issue, however I think it is easily solved. 1) Use a mean between the most efficient and least efficient programmers times, since it could be either one (and probably both) who work on it. In many situations, your more efficient programmer is managing your less efficient pr

estimating other people's work (was Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates)

2004-11-04 Thread Mark Stosberg
I also have a follow-up question: Another real world constraint is that sometimes by the time the client approves the quote, I'm involved in another project and it works better logistically to have another programmer complete the task (or help with it). Since programmers are not "plug and play

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-04 Thread Mark Stosberg
Thanks for all the feedback and suggestions for improving estimation. Based on this and other research, I expect to make a sort of "best practices" documentation for use at my small professional services firm. I'm thinking of including these key parts in it: 1. A checklist of things to consider w

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-02 Thread Peter Masiar
Mark Stosberg wrote: On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 07:45, Mark Stosberg wrote: So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great estimates? What habits to develop? Thanks to everyone for all the responses. There is one theme I haven't heard anyone mention: The purely scientific approach that I a

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-02 Thread Stevan Little
Mark, There is one theme I haven't heard anyone mention: The purely scientific approach that I assume involves collecting a lot o data and using complex formulas. I think that may be because project estimation is more akin to alchemy and witchcraft than it is "hard science". :) Steve

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-02 Thread Stevan Little
Mark, I think Jared and Andy both have made excellent suggestions, especially Andy's comment about breaking it down into manageable chunks. So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great estimates? What habits to develop? When I first started estimating projects I very often would ma

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-02 Thread Mark Stosberg
On 2004-11-01, chromatic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 07:45, Mark Stosberg wrote: > >> So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great estimates? >> What habits to develop? > > I have two primary rules: > > 1) Don't make an estimate for something I haven't done bef

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-02 Thread Mark Stosberg
On Mon, Nov 01, 2004 at 01:53:59PM -0800, Jared Rhine wrote: > [Mark == [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:45:34 + (UTC)] > > Mark> So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great > Mark> estimates? What habits to develop? > > Estimate only what you know... Thank you Ja

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Mike Schroeder
Hello List (I'm new - met Andy at the WebGUI conference in Chicago and got inspired to signup!). We've been pushing down to 8 hours as the max estimate, but I like Andy's idea of pushing down to 4 hours. The 8 hours came because we don't believe someone can accurately estimate a task of more t

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Andy Lester
Estimate with severe granularity. All estimates are a collection of subestimates. If you say "I can do that in 8 days", but that 8 day estimate is just gut feel, why should the customer believe you? Why should YOU believe you? "Well, it'll be 2 days for this, 3 days for that, and 3 days for

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread chromatic
On Mon, 2004-11-01 at 07:45, Mark Stosberg wrote: > So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great estimates? > What habits to develop? I have two primary rules: 1) Don't make an estimate for something I haven't done before. 2) Don't make an estimate for anything that'll take longer

Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Jared Rhine
[Mark == [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:45:34 + (UTC)] Mark> So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great Mark> estimates? What habits to develop? Estimate only what you know. My preferred model is to "bid" on only "one phase at a time". During kickoff, I'll giv

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Ovid
--- Ovid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Mark Stosberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great > > estimates? > > What habits to develop? And all that writing only to notice that I only peripherally touched on your question :) Whoops, Ovid

Re: Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Ovid
--- Mark Stosberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So, what resources are recommended to consult to make great > estimates? > What habits to develop? /me puts on his "economics" hat. It's widely reported that the majority of "large" software projects fail. I won't cite anything here as this is easy

Quality from the Beginning: Better Estimates

2004-11-01 Thread Mark Stosberg
Hello, I imagine that many of you develop Perl with real world constraints-- deadlines and budgets. Whether you deliver your work internally or to an external client, a good estimate plays an important role in the ultimate quality of the software. You may well have experienced working on a proj