Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 1:12 時,Allison Randal via RT 寫到: Audrey Tang wrote: That is a sane argument, which is why I think punt-and-see has some merit: as soon as there is a workaround forced to be expressed at :immediate level, we can evaluate it and see if it's better handled declaratively. Ex

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Allison Randal
Audrey Tang wrote: That is a sane argument, which is why I think punt-and-see has some merit: as soon as there is a workaround forced to be expressed at :immediate level, we can evaluate it and see if it's better handled declaratively. Excellent. (Er, though you know that .loadlib isn't reall

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 12:57 時,chromatic 寫到: On Tuesday 11 July 2006 21:45, Audrey Tang wrote: If you think PIR is a language for people to write manually to code applications in, _and_ it has some legitimate use for deleting files in :immediate blocks, then your argument may make some sense. Co

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread chromatic
On Tuesday 11 July 2006 21:45, Audrey Tang wrote: > If you think PIR is a language for people to write manually to > code applications in, _and_ it has some legitimate use for deleting files > in :immediate blocks, then your argument may make some sense. Come on, Audrey! That's a strawman argum

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 12:51 時,Allison Randal via RT 寫到: Chip Salzenberg wrote: [*] Just what it _is_ intended for is an open question. I think the user base will answer it, if we let them, in time. To give a concrete and immediately relevant example: the fact that people are using :immedia

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Allison Randal
Chip Salzenberg wrote: [*] Just what it _is_ intended for is an open question. I think the user base will answer it, if we let them, in time. To give a concrete and immediately relevant example: the fact that people are using :immediate to load libraries at compile-time is a good sign t

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 12:33 時,chromatic via RT 寫到: Because people might write code, by hand, that does careless things in :immediate subs? Yes. This is the difference between forcing syntax highlighters, security checkers, dependency analyzers, and refactoring browsers to run rm-rf, and let use

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 12:40 時,chromatic via RT 寫到: To follow this argument logically, I don't see alternatives besides removing :init or sandboxing all potentially destructive operations -- and I have plenty of Perl 5 code that legitimately deletes files in BEGIN blocks as evidence that this potent

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread chromatic
On Tuesday 11 July 2006 21:29, Audrey Tang wrote: > Yes. And it is the designer's choice to introduce unpredictability into > the PIR level. If the designer allows rand() inside :immediate, it's > the designer's call; if the designer allows rm -rf, it's again the > designer's call. I'm sorry, b

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread chromatic
On Tuesday 11 July 2006 21:09, Audrey Tang wrote: > I really cannot argue with that argument (essentially "let's punt and   > see"); therefore this ticket is probably best reserved until Parrot actually > has a security model, in which time I'll then argue that :immediate should > be subjected t

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/12 上午 12:22 時,Chip Salzenberg 寫到: In short, to say that :immediate is unpredictable is to make a null statement, because in practice, all computation is unpredictable. Yes. And it is the designer's choice to introduce unpredictability into the PIR level. If the designer allows rand(

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Chip Salzenberg
On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 11:52:10PM -0400, Bob Rogers wrote: >Even so, I can't see how it would help to use :immediate to compile > Common Lisp. That's fine; some misconceptions to the contrary, that's not what it's intended for.[*] It's an *analogue* of Perl's BEGIN; it's not intended to be a

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Chip Salzenberg
On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 09:59:12PM -0400, Audrey Tang wrote: > ?b 2006/7/11 ?U?? 7:33 ???AChip Salzenberg via RT ?g???G > >Now think about the alternatives if your goal is to have the table ready > >to go at runtime without any computational overhead at all. > > And if we can restrict :immediate u

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
So far we have been enable to produce a use case that requires unbounded evaluation (typo, it's "unable" above.) PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/11 下午 11:52 時,Bob Rogers via RT 寫到: But by "compile time" you both unambiguously mean "PIR compile time", not "HLL compile time," since there's no HLL involved. But an HLL compiler always has the option of building a PIR constant at HLL compile time [2], so that just leaves the case

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Bob Rogers
From: Audrey Tang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 23:54:30 -0400 . . . Well, I'm curious, as the only dynamic language with this feature -- Perl5 namely -- does not target Parrot, and the current users of this feature is out of necessity for working around the dynl

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Leopold Toetsch
On Tue, Jul 11, 2006 at 04:31:36PM -0700, Chip Salzenberg wrote: > > There's a PIR file already in svn somewhere in Parrot where a :immediate > function is used to build a large table programmatically at compile time, so > that at runtime it's already completely available. That's neat. Yep. It'l

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Audrey Tang
在 2006/7/11 下午 7:33 時,Chip Salzenberg via RT 寫到: Now think about the alternatives if your goal is to have the table ready to go at runtime without any computational overhead at all, e.g. a CRC table. And if we can restrict :immediate using some security principal in the future so it can o

Re: [perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Chip Salzenberg
Leaving :immediatein PIR doesn't actually introduce any problems that we didn't already have (and can't escape anyway). There's a PIR file already in svn somewhere in Parrot where a :immediate function is used to build a large table programmatically at compile time, so that at runtime it's already

[perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread Leopold Toetsch via RT
Re more powerful constant creation: There's already a VTABLE method for constructing PMCs from STRINGs, e.g: =item C Class method to construct an array from the string representation C, which is a string I<"(el0, el1, ...)">. used for creating param/args signature arrays inside src/pmc/fixedint

[perl #39792] [TODO] Deprecate :immediate in favour of .loadlib and .const

2006-07-11 Thread via RT
# New Ticket Created by Autrijus Tang # Please include the string: [perl #39792] # in the subject line of all future correspondence about this issue. # http://rt.perl.org/rt3/Ticket/Display.html?id=39792 > Currently :immediate in PIR serves two purposes: Running loadlib for type lookups, an