Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

both etc.). > > (I just learned how all that workd properly ;) > > > -Original Message- > From: "Everett Toews" > Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm > To: "Jordan Rinke" > Cc: "Chad Keck" , "Stephen Spector" > ,

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

t; From: "Everett Toews" > Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm > To: "Jordan Rinke" > Cc: "Chad Keck" , "Stephen Spector" < > stephen.spec...@openstack.org>, openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum > >

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

From: "Everett Toews" Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 10:06pm To: "Jordan Rinke" Cc: "Chad Keck" , "Stephen Spector" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Okay...so I at least have to ask. Where exactly does that leave the

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

re please provide it and I will > get demos of every one recommended up and we can put the software to a vote > for the official forums. > > -Original Message- > From: "Chad Keck" > Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 3:59pm > To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Su

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Thanks Jeff. It looks like it supports the basic functionality of a typical forum based application and includes a very nice modern jQuerry based UI. The user reputation system is configurable and is based on both posts and karma. One of more interesting features is the ability to import RSS

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

vBulletin has a lot of add-ons and is a tried and true, albeit somewhat crufty solution. I've sysadmined a 2 million page view/month vB 3 install for more than a decade now. It's sturdy, but is showing it's age. One new alternative to vBulletin is xenForo: http://xenforo.com/ It's developed by

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

The best, which is relative, and one of the most widely used forum apps is vbulletin . It's commercial, but inexpensive ($195.00 US). Their new CMS product ($295 US) also looks interesting. In addition to all of the standard vbulletin forum functionality we could p

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

ay 5, 2011 3:59pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I was about to say ;) My unofficial forums aren't THAT ugly! -- Chad On May 5, 2011, at 2:15 PM, Anne Gentle wrote: > Oh and I use "ugly" in quotation marks to indicate that&#x

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

ommunity? Many of you have specifically said you > wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it > uses, or if it even exists? > > -Original Message- > From: "Chad Keck" > Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:55pm > To: openstac

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Ed Leafe wrote: > On May 5, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > >> I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something >> specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you >> wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

rote: > >> I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something >> specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you >> wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it >> uses, or if it even exis

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

you > wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it > uses, or if it even exists? > > -Original Message- > From: "Chad Keck" > Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:55pm > To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Openstack]

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

So, you are saying you *would* visit a forum... awesome we are moving in the right direction now. -Original Message- From: "Ed Leafe" Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 2:51pm To: "Jordan Rinke" Cc: "Chad Keck" , "openstack@lists.launchpad.net" Subje

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On May 5, 2011, at 2:06 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > I don't see why developers are weighing in so heavily on something > specifically for the user community? Many of you have specifically said you > wouldn't visit a forum so why do you care so much about what software it > uses, or if it even exi

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

We've indicated that the community in question was Sys admins and the like, and in that regard, the Stack* sites have been a resounding success. On 5/5/11 11:55 AM, "Chad Keck" wrote: >Of course StackOverflow is popular, for some, and it works great for a >specific type of community. Confiden

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

had Keck" Sent: Thursday, May 5, 2011 12:55pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum What does it matter what the forum looks like? If you are implying that forums are largely unpopular today because of StackOverflow you would be wrong. Of course Stac

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

What does it matter what the forum looks like? If you are implying that forums are largely unpopular today because of StackOverflow you would be wrong. Of course StackOverflow is popular, for some, and it works great for a specific type of community. Maybe someone should clearly articulate what

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On May 4, 2011, at 10:44 PM, Chad Keck wrote: > How about this... > > www.stackertalk.com > > Since I'm not a developer I'd like to contribute in some form or another :) > There is a lot more refinement that needs to go into the site but I'm happy > to run this forum. If anyone would like to h

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

think 8 or 9 of us ready to rock on it just waiting for the meeting results. -Original Message- From: "Chad Keck" Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:44pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum How about this... www.stackertalk.com Since

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

How about this... www.stackertalk.com Since I'm not a developer I'd like to contribute in some form or another :) There is a lot more refinement that needs to go into the site but I'm happy to run this forum. If anyone would like to help moderate/administer please let me know. I like the Stac

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I hope to find a service that lives at the triple point between forum, email list, and NNTP. Same content, same sequence, same archives, accessible via whichever medium you prefer. Lyris once had such a product but they've taken their service down a different road. (Today's Internet forums alway

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I guess I am the target audience for this question. I am a system admin although I do some programming my primary job it to keep things running and to build out new hardware. I started looking at using open stack a month or so ago as VMware isn't open source and I am looking to move off that plat

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

that seems right... I don't know at what point we decided they were mutually > exclusive. Both seems fine to me, I only worry that we will have too many places that people are asking questions and not enough people answering them. > > > -Original Me

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Me too. I can't stand Launchpad's Answers system and I don't particularly care for forums in general. The StackOverflow style is an easy-to-use alternative. As soon as I can turn LP Answers for Glance off and move to a StackExchange-like system, the better, IMHO. -jay On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 11:5

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Add me as well --J On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:42 AM, Ed Leafe wrote: > On May 4, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Everett Toews wrote: > >> Below is a list of people from this thread who are in favor (or at least >> interested in trying) the StackExchange style. > > >        Add me to that list. > > > > -- Ed

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On May 4, 2011, at 11:26 AM, Everett Toews wrote: > Below is a list of people from this thread who are in favor (or at least > interested in trying) the StackExchange style. Add me to that list. -- Ed Leafe Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message (including any attached or emb

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

sts.launchpad.net > * > Sent: *2011 May, Wed, 4 04:47:15 GMT+00:00* > Subject: *Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum > > > - Original message - > > Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I > >know of require money for commercial

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

A few people have mentioned the stack exchange style idea. I think this is a fantastic idea; StackOverflow, etc. has been extremely useful to me. Since it is free to host a subdomain on StackExchange if there is enough support, we might as well get the ball rolling in addition. This could repl

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

ews" > Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm > To: "Anne Gentle" > Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum > > Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. > > For an Open Source StackE

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/04/2011 09:09 PM, Me wrote: > Cool, I will put up a forum with each and give out admin details so people > can poke around and see what one they like best. I will send out links and > login info later today. > > Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless FYI, this page is quite interesting: http

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Sent: 2011 May, Wed, 4 04:47:15 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum - Original message - > Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I >    know of require money for commercial use etc. About 2 dozen of very valuable projects yes. PunB

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

- Original message - > Is there another free OSS option out there for a forum? All the others I >    know of require money for commercial use etc. About 2 dozen of very valuable projects yes. PunBB, SMF and Fudforum pops to my mind, smf being the most famous, Fudforum being the most fea

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

: [Openstack] Creating a forum And I think that is exactly the things one should bring to the table when discussing the pros/cons of a piece of software. I don't have a preference myself. I don't really know of any webapp beyond security problems. What is more important to me is who will m

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

And I think that is exactly the things one should bring to the table when discussing the pros/cons of a piece of software. I don't have a preference myself. I don't really know of any webapp beyond security problems. What is more important to me is who will maintain it and how quickly that app's

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/04/2011 05:42 AM, Daniel Salinas wrote: > This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum > software. I like vbulletin. > > On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler" wrote: > >> On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: >>> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official Ope

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

"openstack@lists.launchpad.net" Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum I just brought that up in the release meeting. It is on the agenda for the PPB to discuss on Thursday. Vish On May 3, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Paul Voccio wrote: > Are these really the "official" openstack fo

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

comments about the >> forum etc. >> >> -Original Message- >> From: "Everett Toews" >> Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm >> To: "Anne Gentle" >> Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net >> Subject: Re: [Op

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Do I have this right? We were just debating this topic this morning and I just see a blog post by Stephen Spector announcing forums? Incroyable! Bernard Golden bernard.gol...@gmail.com On May 3, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Daniel Salinas wrote: > This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

;http://forums.openstack.org > >Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the >forum etc. > >-Original Message- >From: "Everett Toews" >Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:22pm >To: "Anne Gentle" >Cc: "Jordan Rinke&qu

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

This is awesome!!! Now we can spend 3 weeks debating about forum software. I like vbulletin. On 5/3/11 3:32 PM, "Michael Shuler" wrote: >On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: >> Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! >> >> http://forums.openstack.org >> >> Wo

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/03/2011 02:49 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen... welcome to the official OpenStack Forums! > > http://forums.openstack.org > > Work in progress so feel free to join and post up any comments about the > forum etc. phpBB is a poor choice of forum software, IMO. -- Michael

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

e" Cc: "Jordan Rinke" , openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Regarding your StackExchange questions Anne. For an Open Source StackExchange-like site OSQA (http://www.osqa.net/) could be used. For StackExchange itself it's free as in beer (

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 11:24, Thierry Carrez wrote: > A forum is almost always the wrong solution when we talk about a > developer/technical subject. In my experience it always ended up > fragmenting the community between developers (who don't read the forums) > and users (who don't read the rest

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

did vote Yes on >> the >> survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM >> To: Jordan Rinke >> Cc: openstac

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

n noted as an excellent > point). > > We don't have an extended answer from Anne yet, but she did vote Yes on the > survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). > > -Original Message- > From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

; Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM > To: Jordan Rinke > Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum > > Jordan Rinke wrote: > > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is > > great for a very specific question (And the

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

e did vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a for

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

ailto:thie...@openstack.org] > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM > To: Jordan Rinke > Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net > Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum > > Jordan Rinke wrote: > > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is > > great

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

vote Yes on the survey (unless someone else used her name since there is no real auth). -Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 9:27 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum J

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote: > I think a purely QnA site misses the mark a little, that style is great for > a very specific question (And the OSQnA stuff Everett linked looks great) > but I think a lot of users are lacking the knowledge to ask a very specific > question just yet. So maybe it is that we nee

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

a few comments about a forum: + While I agree with Thierry that most end user apps have forums, some SA/Dev oriented software also have forums. + I think there is a need for a place where people can ask simple questions they would not feel comfortable asking on the ML. - Forums are very lab

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

, 2011 8:59 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: > Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an > official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around?

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

-Original Message- From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thie...@openstack.org] Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 8:59 AM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: > Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn&#x

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote: > Can anyone name a large successful project that either doesn't have an > official forum, or that multiple unofficial forums haven't sprung up around? The Linux Kernel ? Apache HTTPD ? Most projects that have forums are end-user-oriented, not sysadmin-oriented. > Also, I look

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

+1 for the idea of a StackExchange-type site. I tend to find them to be better resources than old-school forums, but without the barriers to just "dropping by with a question" that Ron mentioned for mailing lists. (It's hard to get users to search mailing list archives before reposting a questi

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

t: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:24 AM To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum Jordan Rinke wrote: > I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it wa

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote: > To make this a bit more democratic I have created a survey. Simply vote for > your answer and whichever has the most votes wins. (If we had a forum > already, the poll/vote could have happened there) > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z9VPLSJ > > (It is not a unique link, y

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Jordan Rinke wrote: > I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about > creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to > think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for > people who are not likely to use a mailing list.

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

2011/5/3 Everett Toews : > What I think the essential features for any user support forum are: > 1. ability to up vote so the best answers bubble to the top. > 2. for the original poster to be able pick the answer they used. In addition to forums, Ubuntu also has a StackExchange.com site. This giv

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

2011/5/3 Ron Pedde : > On 5/2/11 6:10 PM, "Soren Hansen" wrote: >>I just know from >>experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of >>motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. > > And I think that would be the objective of the forums.  It doesn't ma

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/03/2011 10:29 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > To make this a bit more democratic I have created a survey. Simply vote for > your answer and whichever has the most votes wins. (If we had a forum > already, the poll/vote could have happened there) > > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Z9VPLSJ > > (It

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

For user support, one of Jordan's original intentions for this thread, I think forums are out-dated. Forum threads tend to get very noisy and it can be difficult to discern what top answers are for any given topic. What is needed is a system, like OSQA (osqa.net), that uses the knowledge of the com

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

votes but let's just try to be civil) -Original Message- From: "Thomas Goirand" Sent: Monday, May 2, 2011 9:05pm To: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum On 05/03/2011 07:10 AM, Soren Hansen wrote: > I totally understand that I

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I don't know if a forum is the right answer but I would like to have a better way to organize information about deployments, operational best practices and any issues running OpenStack code in production environments. Maybe the answer is creating a few more mailing lists and irc channels. H

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/03/2011 07:10 AM, Soren Hansen wrote: > I totally understand that I'm reasonably alone in this (the endless > amount of forums with even more endless amounts of users all over the > Internet clearly demonstrates that I'm at least a minority), so don't > let me hold you guys back if you all lo

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 05/03/2011 04:12 AM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about > creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone > seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and > discussions for people who are not likely to

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

cisco@lists.launchpad.net] On Behalf Of Soren Hansen Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 4:10 PM To: Jordan Rinke Cc: openstack@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum It's certainly a matter of personal preference, but I absolutely hate forums. I hate that I cannot interact with them usi

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 5/2/11 6:10 PM, "Soren Hansen" wrote: >I just know from >experience that try as I might, I'm not likely to maintain any sort of >motivation to participate in forums for any useful amount of time. And I think that would be the objective of the forums. It doesn't make sense for core-devs to a

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On Mon, 2 May 2011 22:41:32 + Ron Pedde wrote: > My experience is that I will peruse mailing list archives, but I will > rarely *post* to mailing lists. Something about the formality of it or > the pain of subscribing and unsubscribing (or something!) makes me much > more reluctant to join a

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

What I think the essential features for any user support forum are: 1. ability to up vote so the best answers bubble to the top. 2. for the original poster to be able pick the answer they used. 3. the chance to edit answers so they don't become stale. 4. they system searches the forum when you go

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

It's certainly a matter of personal preference, but I absolutely hate forums. I hate that I cannot interact with them using clients that I choose. No, the fact that I can choose between different web browsers doesn't count. E-mail and usenet, for instance, are excellent means for communication. I

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I agree with this posting. One thing to keep in mind is that OpenStack will have many more "users" (in other words, people who are not developing the software, but rather are implementing it or even using someone's implementation as a basis for end user applications) interested in OpenStack in t

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 5/2/11 5:10 PM, "Matt Dietz" wrote: >Fair points. I can see it being used for user support. > >"Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an >openstack-users >list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or >intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barri

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

If we create a forum for these types of questions, I suggest we turn off Questions in Launchpad and direct people to the forum instead. It is already hard for some people to get a response there and it will only get worse if we have to answer questions in two places. Vish On May 2, 2011, at 3

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Fair points. I can see it being used for user support. "Another way to have these sorts of discussions would be an openstack-users list, but I think lists present much more friction to tire-kickers or intrigued admins. Forums have a much lower barrier to entry, and consequently (IMHO) they are be

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

On 5/2/11 4:03 PM, "Matt Dietz" wrote: >I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not >sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is >that there would be a separation of important discussions. I think the class of questions on a forum would be w

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

We could probably implement much better search with the same Google CSE account we're using for docs.openstack.org. I'll talk to Anne. Sent from my iPhone On May 2, 2011, at 4:06 PM, Glen Campbell wrote: > I wish the list archives had a better search function. > > > > > > > On 5/2/11 3:1

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

like! B On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, Everett Toews wrote: > I'm all for creating a forum. The Launchpad answers thing is okay but could > be better and it's very siloed to the individual project. > > I found a stackexchange-like open source implementation called OSQA: The > Open Source Q&A S

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I'm all for creating a forum. The Launchpad answers thing is okay but could be better and it's very siloed to the individual project. I found a stackexchange-like open source implementation called OSQA: The Open Source Q&A System . It's written in python. Could be a good fit

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

1) I think this is a great idea... 2) I would highly recommend XenForo as a platform for the forum (www.xenforo.com). Check it out if you haven't seen it before. As someone who moderates a handful of forums and participates on maybe 100+ it is the best I've seen/used. -- Chad On May 2, 2011,

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I wish the list archives had a better search function. On 5/2/11 3:12 PM, "Jordan Rinke" wrote: >I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about >creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed >to think it was a good idea especially for user s

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

Hey Jordan, I think a forum as a means of communication is great. However, I'm not sure I feel it's the right fit here. My main concern in this regard is that there would be a separation of important discussions. I would also be concerned about a feeling of false consensus on hot-button topics tha

Re: [Openstack] Creating a forum

I think between the list and the Launchpad Questions section we have it covered. Maybe we could just make the Launchpad Questions section mentioned more prevalently in docs? -todd[1] On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Jordan Rinke wrote: > I had a number of discussions with various people at the s

[Openstack] Creating a forum

I had a number of discussions with various people at the summit about creating a forum for openstack (forum.openstack.org) and everyone seemed to think it was a good idea especially for user support and discussions for people who are not likely to use a mailing list. So I have 2 questions... 1.