[opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

heya Joe, in your initial announcement you said there would be three TPV meetings... is the third one today/cancelled/postponed/forgotten? bye, LC ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSourc

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Looking at this mailing list the meeting with Joe did not do anything but put new oil in the fire. People start the same interpretation of intentions all over again that were already discussed to death. Intentions were never questioned. I don't really know what the point is of going through all

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I think Boy Lane's beta suggestion is excellent, because it will also reduce the possibility of other problems with the meeting. On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 7:16 AM, Boy Lane wrote: > Yes, the betagrid does not require to clickwrap the new ToS/TPV, for the > simple > reason it is a months old snapsho

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

I'm not sure what you mean it didn't quite work. Anyways, I appreciate that Joe wants to gather this Brown-Bag, so we can talk specifics in words. Tigro Spottystripes wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > a baby can still crawl over the TV remote and turn it on right when

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 a baby can still crawl over the TV remote and turn it on right when a horror movie is playing, that baby analogy didn't quite work On 10/4/2010 14:14, Dzonatas Sol wrote: > Hi Joe, > > In case I don't make the Brown Bag, I just wanted to point out th

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Thank you Joe I'd like to chime in and bring my own concerns since I won't make it to the meeting. My primary concern is about the Viewer Directory and here are my questions : - Will registering a TPV to the Viewer Directory become mandatory one day ? If so, how can we be absolutely certain that

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Hi Joe, In case I don't make the Brown Bag, I just wanted to point out the fact that simply developers, which includes how Linden Lab has invested resources to sustain such world, don't share a view with users that Virtual Reality that Virtual Reality is not just a game. This realization is ac

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Tateru wrote in this regards. The short form: https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-April/001633.html Boy - Original Message - From: "Carlo Wood" To: "Boy Lane" Cc: "Joe Miller" ; Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [ope

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

If the beta grid (Aditi) does not demand one to accept the TOS before being able to login, then this is by far the best solution I've heard so far. Can someone confirm that logging into the beta grid does NOT ask one to agree with the new TOS? On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 11:50:24PM +0800, Boy Lane wr

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

This doesn't cut it, as the whole problem is that open source developers should NOT have to take any legal liablity. The risk are entirely for the user. The goal that we seek is that the TPV policy makes clear that: 1) A developer can have his viewer blocked (and even his account deleted) if h

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

In case you're using linux and mutt. I'm using mutt and have in my .mutt/muttrc the following line: auto_view text/html Then I have in ~/.mutt/mailcap the line: text/html; w3m -dump %s; copiousoutput; nametemplate=%s.html On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:43:51PM -0400, lists.secondlife@trap

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

That's odd. But you can browse the list here. https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-April/thread.html Scroll to the bottom. -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist. VesuviusGroup.com SL

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

CeeJay Tigerpaw squeaks up: I think there is rather a meta issue here which should be articulated again clearly, before the meeting, that has to do with the interaction between substantial established businesses and the open-source/third-party-developer community. Let me see if I can describe

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Thanks Joe. > > Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting > ToS/TPV in the first place. > > >

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Fact is that the TPV policy, point 7, is open to interpretation. as long as the wording is not unambiguous, people will continue to interpret it in different ways. and as long as it is not rewritten, anything along the lines of "but we mean it like this" being said by anyone is not going to matte

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

No, the real issue is that some people _THINK_ LL is trying to give TPV developers legal liabilities. This is about interpretation and not facts. Unless I missed something LL has never stated anything about legal liabilities, it's solely based on some peoples personal interpretation of the TPVP. I

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Am Freitag 09 April 2010 schrieb Tigro Spottystripes: > isn't the real issue there that LL is trying to give TPV developers > legal liabilities (that might be incompatible with the license of > the code they use to create TPVs) instead of just covering their > own assets? that's exactly my point.

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 isn't the real issue there that LL is trying to give TPV developers legal liabilities (that might be incompatible with the license of the code they use to create TPVs) instead of just covering their own assets? On 9/4/2010 15:29, Lance Corrimal wrote:

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Am Freitag 09 April 2010 schrieb Joe Miller: > I intend to listen to listen to all reasonable > proposals to address those concerns. Those who do not wish to > participate in that synchronous event can email me instead if they > so choose. My concern about the TPV is mainly with section 7, whic

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

i do On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Argent Stonecutter > wrote: > > Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I > > tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually > > get it to work. The

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I > tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually > get it to work. The dot came up, and my computer was receiving data > because his dot was sho

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually get it to work. The dot came up, and my computer was receiving data because his dot was showing activity, but I couldn't hear anything. _

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On 04/09/2010 05:29 PM, Joe Miller wrote: > Henri, > > Sorry you can't participate. Joe, Is there a compelling reason why the meeting cannot be hold in text? It looks like that'd accommodate more developers of both, Snowgobe and Third Party Viewers. A lot of us aren't native speakers and are much

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

All of these are recordable, actually, and there is always the option of a voice conference call that is recorded. The technology really shouldn't be a limiting factor in having a discussion on any of these platforms if creating a record is a primary concern. (Including Second Life with video, voic

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Morgaine, Thanks for asking.  My interest is to listen to specific concerns voiced by the majority of the community and (more importantly) take proposed solutions to those concerns under advisement before the policy becomes effective on April 30.  It won't be very productive for anyone if it's

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Thanks Joe. Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. - Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 From: Joe Linden Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue di

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

@transcript/recording concerns: Some might remember the Adult content transition and the related brown-bag meetings. Audio recordings were uploaded and transcripts of those were published, like in https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Oriented_content_controls:_merchant_meeting

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Issues understood. I've just been remembering previous in-world meetings that were simulcast on skype, although I also remembered that they couldn't get it working... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Erik Anderson > wrote: > > Would Skype

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Erik Anderson wrote: > Would Skype be an option? > --piping up from the peanut gallery... > 1 not every stake holder even has skype 2 still has the not recordable problem 3 would it even scale to the needed level?? -- Robert L Martin __

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

tely one can not attend without going inworld and accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. - Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 From: Joe Linden <j...@lindenlab.com> Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Would Skype be an option? --piping up from the peanut gallery... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Ron Festa wrote: > I'm afraid that won't work. The ToS is an agreement between you (the user) > and Linden Lab, not your avatar and LL. > > Personally I think a meeting such as this where many won't

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

>> >>> -- joe >>> >>> On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy Lane >> <mailto:boy.l...@yahoo.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Joe. >>> >>> Unfortunately one can not attend without going inwo

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I'm afraid that won't work. The ToS is an agreement between you (the user) and Linden Lab, not your avatar and LL. Personally I think a meeting such as this where many won't be involved due to the wording of the ToS and TPVP are preventing major TPV devs from entering this discussion would be bett

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

.l...@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks Joe. Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. - Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 From: Joe Linden <j...@lindenlab.com> Subject: [opensource-de

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Henri, Sorry you can't participate. -- Joe Henri Beauchamp wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700, Joe Linden wrote: It'll be an informal Q&A session, What's the point if problems are not actually *addessed* and if it's just about trying to reassure people without

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Boy Lane <boy.l...@yahoo.com> wrote: Thanks Joe. Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. - Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 From: Joe Linden &

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

r and it's legal standing to TPV? Nothing. - Original Message - From: Simon Disk To: Boy Lane Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV I understand i

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Joe, Thanks for doing this. There are obviously a LOT of concerns. I'm not sure if Linden Lab is willing to do so, but sharing any additional insights about why certain parts of the TPVP were drafted the way they are, might help. My ask, of the community: This has the potential to be a meeting w

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I understand it, the ToS and associated policies are by account, every alt account you sign in with has to accept them individually. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

, isn't it :) - Original Message - From: Simon Disk To: Boy Lane Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV Why does creating an alt mean your jumping on LL's side?

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Why does creating an alt mean your jumping on LL's side? Why are there sides anyway? If it is an important enough issue to you, you should find a way. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-D

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

§7.7 makes the TPVP effective with the ToS. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

: Joe Linden ; opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV Create an alt account for the sole purpose of attending the Brown-Bag meetings, then cancel the account on April 29, 2010

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Certainly, that relates to ToS which has a commencement date in itself of 30 April. Unfortunately the linked TPV I have to agree upon login does not have a commencement date. Not that it matters if I accept it for its content or not, which I don't. Logging in and clickwrapping ToS automatically me

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Create an alt account for the sole purpose of attending the Brown-Bag meetings, then cancel the account on April 29, 2010 before the ToS/TPVP become effective. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open

[opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Re ... > Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and > accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. and > Of course you can. The ToS presented at login clearly states it > becomes effective on 4/30. In the meantime, you continue to use the > service under the terms of the prior T

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 in theory it should be possible to record what is said in voice, though coordinating voice with text for context would be a bit more complicated (though a video of the meeting with a good resolution and as lossless as possible codec/compression could d

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:43:42 +0200, Carlo Wood wrote: > That is probably exactly the reason why they want it to be in voice: > so that there is no transcript and nobody can use whatever is going > to be said in court at a later time. I want to make clear that I refuse this interpretation. This

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 07:28:14AM -0400, Robert Martin wrote: > >> Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand > >> spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough > >> to hold a conversation in voice. > > > also unless im not mistaken holding it in Voi

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

> On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:37:00 +0200, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > >> Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand >> spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough >> to hold a conversation in voice. > also unless im not mistaken holding it in Voice also gu

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:37:00 +0200, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand > spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough > to hold a conversation in voice. +1 (being Italian) I'm willing to participate and contribute

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Joe, nowhere do you say that you are going to feed the community response back to the people who drafted the TPV, in order to seek change. Was that implied? Nor do you say that you are going to champion the TPV community's needs with the appropriate Lindens after your 3 meetings. Was that implie

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

13:24:57 -0700 From: Joe Linden Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13) To: OpenSource-Dev Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, all. I've been reading

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700, Joe Linden wrote: > It'll be an informal Q&A session, What's the point if problems are not actually *addessed* and if it's just about trying to reassure people without any written warrantee given on LL's side ? > held in voice, at this location: Voice is a no-

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

nd without going inworld and accepting > ToS/TPV in the first place. > > > - Original Message - Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 > From: Joe Linden mailto:j...@lindenlab.com>> > Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

- Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 >> From: Joe Linden >> Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV >> next Tuesday (4/13) >> To: OpenSource-Dev >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1&quo

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

It is my understanding that it is to be voice. At 09:05 PM 4/8/2010, Frans wrote: >Maybe we could setup a chat bridge? > >So people can comment from the web or opensim. Though that depends >if it is going to be voice or text. > > >-- >Jeroen Frans >Virtual World Technology Specialist. >VesuviusGr

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Maybe we could setup a chat bridge? So people can comment from the web or opensim. Though that depends if it is going to be voice or text. -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist. VesuviusGroup.com SL: Frans Charming ___ Policies and (un)s

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

r 2010 13:24:57 -0700 >> From: Joe Linden >> Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV >> next Tuesday (4/13) >> To: OpenSource-Dev >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hello,

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Thanks Joe. Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. > - Original Message - > Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700 > From: Joe Linden > Subject: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV > nex

[opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Hello, all. I've been reading the ongoing commentary here, on various blogs, irc, and in-world groups about the recently introduced Third Party Viewer Policy and Directory and I'd like to host an "office hour" or informal brown bag to make the conversation a little more synchronous for those who a