Re: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 3, Issue 40

> If the first one was re-written to say "you are responsible for all NEW > features etc that you ADDED to make a Third-Party Viewer, etc" it would > be more clear. That will create a false sense of safety. When LL removes code from the source tree for legal reasons you'd make a TPV developer beli

Re: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 3, Issue 40

Daniel wrote: > No, the real issue is that some people _THINK_ LL is trying to give > TPV developers legal liabilities. This is about interpretation and > not facts. Unless I missed something LL has never stated anything > about legal liabilities, it's solely based on some peoples personal > interp

Re: [opensource-dev] opensource-dev Digest, Vol 3, Issue 40

Dirk Moerenhout wrote: No, the real issue is that some people _THINK_ LL is trying to give TPV developers legal liabilities. This is about interpretation and not facts. Unless I missed something LL has never stated anything about legal liabilities, it's solely based on some peoples personal in

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

That's odd. But you can browse the list here. https://lists.secondlife.com/pipermail/opensource-dev/2010-April/thread.html Scroll to the bottom. -- Jeroen Frans Virtual World Technology Specialist. VesuviusGroup.com SL

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

CeeJay Tigerpaw squeaks up: I think there is rather a meta issue here which should be articulated again clearly, before the meeting, that has to do with the interaction between substantial established businesses and the open-source/third-party-developer community. Let me see if I can describe

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Friday 09 April 2010 11:49:48 am Joe Miller wrote: > > > > > > > > > No apology necessary.  I just wanted to restate that if TPV authors > are staying away from this meeting because of some perceived "catch-22" on > acceptance of the updated TOS, that shouldn't be an issue as they ar

Re: [opensource-dev] Stuff from my Lunch Bag

I agree with this outline, it makes far more sense. However I did want to point out this one minor detail: Nicholaz Beresford wrote: > - instruct that there is no end user support for problems arising when > using a TPV > I assume you meant problems arising *because* of using a TPV. A user ha

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Fact is that the TPV policy, point 7, is open to interpretation. as long as the wording is not unambiguous, people will continue to interpret it in different ways. and as long as it is not rewritten, anything along the lines of "but we mean it like this" being said by anyone is not going to matte

Re: [opensource-dev] Stuff from my Lunch Bag

On 2010-04-09, at 14:17, Nicholaz Beresford wrote: > I won't attend the meeting, but here are a few pennies worth of > suggestions (they would be too detailed and complex to convey in a > meeting anyway). [...] I can't attend, because scheduling, firewalls, and voice are too great a hurdle, but

Re: [opensource-dev] Login response request/processing in 1.23 vsSnowglobe / 2.0

Found a likely cause... Viewer 2.0 (and Snowglobe) isn't requesting a gzipped response from the login server which causes the login reply to take much, much longer to download than it does with 1.23. Is there any chance someone forget to build libcurl with zlib? Kitty __

Re: [opensource-dev] SG 1-4 artwork zip file corrupted. SNOW-604

Thickbrick, Thanks Nicky Couldn't make the meeting yesterday. From: Thickbrick Sleaford To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com Cc: Nicky Perian Sent: Fri, April 9, 2010 3:53:54 PM Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] SG 1-4 artwork zip file corrupted. SNOW-604 On

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

No, the real issue is that some people _THINK_ LL is trying to give TPV developers legal liabilities. This is about interpretation and not facts. Unless I missed something LL has never stated anything about legal liabilities, it's solely based on some peoples personal interpretation of the TPVP. I

Re: [opensource-dev] SG 1-4 artwork zip file corrupted. SNOW-604

On Friday 09 April 2010 20:45:41 Nicky Perian wrote: > http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-604?ticket=ST-1291-Du2hp64P1FjUKtaRa > 4G1hKGawJEXOEadOKW-20 > > Could a Linden please take a look? > > Thanks > Nicky The S3 urls in doc/asset_urls.txt give a 403 error ("Access Denied"): http://svn.se

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TPVP

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ah, ok, sorry, i thought you meant the parts in all caps were stuff you changed and since i haven't memorized the exact wording of the latest version of the TPVP i assumed you just had changed the wording somehow On 9/4/2010 17:13, Lance Corrimal wrot

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Am Freitag 09 April 2010 schrieb Tigro Spottystripes: > isn't the real issue there that LL is trying to give TPV developers > legal liabilities (that might be incompatible with the license of > the code they use to create TPVs) instead of just covering their > own assets? that's exactly my point.

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 isn't the real issue there that LL is trying to give TPV developers legal liabilities (that might be incompatible with the license of the code they use to create TPVs) instead of just covering their own assets? On 9/4/2010 15:29, Lance Corrimal wrote:

[opensource-dev] Stuff from my Lunch Bag

I won't attend the meeting, but here are a few pennies worth of suggestions (they would be too detailed and complex to convey in a meeting anyway). First of all, I believe the current TPV is broken beyond repair. The main reason is that responsibilities for users, developers and viewer dictio

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Am Freitag 09 April 2010 schrieb Joe Miller: > I intend to listen to listen to all reasonable > proposals to address those concerns. Those who do not wish to > participate in that synchronous event can email me instead if they > so choose. My concern about the TPV is mainly with section 7, whic

[opensource-dev] SG 1-4 artwork zip file corrupted. SNOW-604

http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SNOW-604?ticket=ST-1291-Du2hp64P1FjUKtaRa4G1hKGawJEXOEadOKW-20 Could a Linden please take a look? Thanks Nicky ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSour

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

i do On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Argent Stonecutter > wrote: > > Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I > > tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually > > get it to work. The

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Argent Stonecutter wrote: > Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I > tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually > get it to work. The dot came up, and my computer was receiving data > because his dot was sho

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Holding the meeting in voice already excludes people. The last time I tried to enable voice for a meeting with a Linden I couldn't actually get it to work. The dot came up, and my computer was receiving data because his dot was showing activity, but I couldn't hear anything. _

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On 04/09/2010 05:29 PM, Joe Miller wrote: > Henri, > > Sorry you can't participate. Joe, Is there a compelling reason why the meeting cannot be hold in text? It looks like that'd accommodate more developers of both, Snowgobe and Third Party Viewers. A lot of us aren't native speakers and are much

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

All of these are recordable, actually, and there is always the option of a voice conference call that is recorded. The technology really shouldn't be a limiting factor in having a discussion on any of these platforms if creating a record is a primary concern. (Including Second Life with video, voic

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Morgaine, Thanks for asking.  My interest is to listen to specific concerns voiced by the majority of the community and (more importantly) take proposed solutions to those concerns under advisement before the policy becomes effective on April 30.  It won't be very productive for anyone if it's

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

As I and others wrote, you may want to change to a neutral platform that does not require one to clickwrap a policy that is to be discussed. The Betagrid would be such an option, and I assume all involved developers have accounts old enough to be in the database. Please also move away from that vo

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

@transcript/recording concerns: Some might remember the Adult content transition and the related brown-bag meetings. Audio recordings were uploaded and transcripts of those were published, like in https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Adult_Oriented_content_controls:_merchant_meeting

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Issues understood. I've just been remembering previous in-world meetings that were simulcast on skype, although I also remembered that they couldn't get it working... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:51 AM, Robert Martin wrote: > On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Erik Anderson > wrote: > > Would Skype

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Erik Anderson wrote: > Would Skype be an option? > --piping up from the peanut gallery... > 1 not every stake holder even has skype 2 still has the not recordable problem 3 would it even scale to the needed level?? -- Robert L Martin __

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

No apology necessary.  I just wanted to restate that if TPV authors are staying away from this meeting because of some perceived "catch-22" on acceptance of the updated TOS, that shouldn't be an issue as they are governed by the TOS in effect prior to 3/31. Tateru Nino wrote: My apologies,

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Would Skype be an option? --piping up from the peanut gallery... On Fri, Apr 9, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Ron Festa wrote: > I'm afraid that won't work. The ToS is an agreement between you (the user) > and Linden Lab, not your avatar and LL. > > Personally I think a meeting such as this where many won't

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

My apologies, Joe - I'll email you directly. On 10/04/2010 1:28 AM, Joe Miller wrote: > Tateru, > > You can continue down this road if you wish, but the facts are the > words in 13.3 do not become effective for Residents who had registered > before March 31, 2010 until April 30 2010. (See the blo

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I'm afraid that won't work. The ToS is an agreement between you (the user) and Linden Lab, not your avatar and LL. Personally I think a meeting such as this where many won't be involved due to the wording of the ToS and TPVP are preventing major TPV devs from entering this discussion would be bett

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Boy, So it's sounds like you won't be able to join me.  Sorry to hear that. -- joe Boy Lane wrote: Joe,   You probably did not read the terms I have to agree upon login yourself. Otherwise you'd have found a better answer to the concern raised.   It is not about time or a

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Henri, Sorry you can't participate. -- Joe Henri Beauchamp wrote: On Thu, 8 Apr 2010 13:24:57 -0700, Joe Linden wrote: It'll be an informal Q&A session, What's the point if problems are not actually *addessed* and if it's just about trying to reassure people without

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Tateru, You can continue down this road if you wish, but the facts are the words in 13.3 do not become effective for Residents who had registered before March 31, 2010 until April 30 2010.  (See the blog post here with additional words to that effect.)  The updated TOS text was pushed to every

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

This does not make any difference for a viewer developer, regardless if or if not a particular avatar is attached to a viewer. But that's where it becomes intersting. Emerald is made by a group of people. They may individually agree to ToS/TPV or not. What does it say about the Emerald viewer and

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Joe, Thanks for doing this. There are obviously a LOT of concerns. I'm not sure if Linden Lab is willing to do so, but sharing any additional insights about why certain parts of the TPVP were drafted the way they are, might help. My ask, of the community: This has the potential to be a meeting w

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I understand it, the ToS and associated policies are by account, every alt account you sign in with has to accept them individually. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

I don't know what you don't understand here. If I use *any* account, aka avatar, to login to SL I have to accept their ToS and TPV and other policies altogether. That is me, the RL person, not the avatar. So there is no difference in using an alt or my normal AV. Simple, isn't it :) - Orig

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Why does creating an alt mean your jumping on LL's side? Why are there sides anyway? If it is an important enough issue to you, you should find a way. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-D

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

§7.7 makes the TPVP effective with the ToS. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Why would I create an alt to jump stupidity on the side of LL? Not only can they track someone, but why would I let my principles of integrity and reputation go just to attend some set up meeting with a questionable agenda? - Original Message - From: Simon Disk To: Boy Lane Cc:

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Certainly, that relates to ToS which has a commencement date in itself of 30 April. Unfortunately the linked TPV I have to agree upon login does not have a commencement date. Not that it matters if I accept it for its content or not, which I don't. Logging in and clickwrapping ToS automatically me

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Create an alt account for the sole purpose of attending the Brown-Bag meetings, then cancel the account on April 29, 2010 before the ToS/TPVP become effective. ___ Policies and (un)subscribe information available here: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Open

[opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Re ... > Unfortunately one can not attend without going inworld and > accepting ToS/TPV in the first place. and > Of course you can. The ToS presented at login clearly states it > becomes effective on 4/30. In the meantime, you continue to use the > service under the terms of the prior T

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 in theory it should be possible to record what is said in voice, though coordinating voice with text for context would be a bit more complicated (though a video of the meeting with a good resolution and as lossless as possible codec/compression could d

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:43:42 +0200, Carlo Wood wrote: > That is probably exactly the reason why they want it to be in voice: > so that there is no transcript and nobody can use whatever is going > to be said in court at a later time. I want to make clear that I refuse this interpretation. This

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 07:28:14AM -0400, Robert Martin wrote: > >> Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand > >> spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough > >> to hold a conversation in voice. > > > also unless im not mistaken holding it in Voi

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

> On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:37:00 +0200, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > >> Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand >> spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough >> to hold a conversation in voice. > also unless im not mistaken holding it in Voice also gu

Re: [opensource-dev] TPV: The status of the Viewer Community

On Thu, Apr 8, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Boy Lane wrote: > Viewers partly ceased/unsure: > OMV, some code removed (full/text) > Emerald, no statement (full) The Emerald Developers have stated that they will have a complient viewer out by the deadline. -- Robert L Martin

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

On Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:37:00 +0200, Henri Beauchamp wrote: > Voice is a no-no for me. Being French, I can't speak and understand > spoken English (and worst, American English...) well and fast enough > to hold a conversation in voice. +1 (being Italian) I'm willing to participate and contribute

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV next Tuesday (4/13)

Joe, nowhere do you say that you are going to feed the community response back to the people who drafted the TPV, in order to seek change. Was that implied? Nor do you say that you are going to champion the TPV community's needs with the appropriate Lindens after your 3 meetings. Was that implie

Re: [opensource-dev] Brown-bag meeting to continue dialog on TVPV

Joe, You probably did not read the terms I have to agree upon login yourself. Otherwise you'd have found a better answer to the concern raised. It is not about time or any dates of policies to become effective. It is about acceptance of unacceptable terms. I can not accept the new ToS without