RE: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Eleveld, DJ
Hi Jeroen, I have also seen that adding correlations often got a impressive improvement in objective function. However, very often when I test that model using cross-validation the predictive performance is *worse* than the model without the correlation. I would call that classic over-fitting.

Re: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Gastonguay, Marc
Douglas makes important point in this discussion. That is, the method used to judge parsimony of the model must consider the performance of the model for intended purpose. Consider the parsimony principle: "all things being equal, choose the simpler model". The key is in how to judge the first par

RE: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Ken Kowalski
Hi All, I agree with everything that Marc and Douglas have pointed out. I too do not advise building the omega structure based on repeated likelihood ratio tests. The approach I take is more akin to what Joe had suggested earlier using SAEM to fit the full block omega structure and then lo

SV: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Mats Karlsson
Hi all, I agree with what Ken and Marc have said. On the point of a full matrix as a diagnostic, which I think is good, an alternative is to run a nonparametric estimation ($NONP) after your normal estimation. Even if you did not use a full block in the original estimation, this step will give

Re: SV: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Jeroen Elassaiss-Schaap
Hi everybody, Nice discussion! Good to hear that we seem to be in agreement on how to deal with off-diagonal elements. Thanks for all your feedback! I would like to underscore Mats comment about the expanded grid option. Also in my experience it seems to work very well, as an efficient approach

RE: [NMusers] OMEGA matrix

2014-10-02 Thread Ken Kowalski
Hi All, My own anecdotal experiences are consistent with Mats’ comment that a variance can be biased when a diagonal omega structure is imposed. When fitting a diagonal omega structure I sometimes find that a particular variance component may be estimated near zero. However, as soon as you

[NMusers] Negative DV values

2014-10-02 Thread siwei Dai
Dear NM users: I have a dataset where some of the concentrations are reported as negative values. I believe that the concentrations were calculated using a standard curve. My instinct is to impute all the negative values to zero, but worry that it will introduce bias. A 2nd thought is using the

Re: [NMusers] Negative DV values

2014-10-02 Thread Ron Keizer
hi Siwei, you should include the BLOQ data as they are, i.e. negative. Any other approach would decrease precision (e.g. M3 likelihood-based) and/or induce bias (e.g. LLOQ/2 or LLOQ=0). I've done some simulations on this a while ago to show this ( http://page-meeting.org/pdf_assets/2413-PAGE_2010_p

Re: [NMusers] Negative DV values

2014-10-02 Thread Nick Holford
Siwei, I agree with Ron. Using the measurements you have is better than trying to use a work around such as likelihood or imputation based methods. Some negative measurement values are exactly what you should expect if the true concentration is zero (or 'close' to zero) when there is backgrou