[NMusers] Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread Yaming Hang
Dear NONMEM Users, I'd like to get some advice from you with regard to how to handle the pre-first dose PK observation when the drug is not an endogenous substance. I tried too different approaches, one approach is treating them as missing values (DV=0, EVID=0, MDV=1), another is treating them

[NMusers] RE: Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread
Yaming, As you pointed-out DV=Prediction. Including these data-points biases your estimate of the additive component of variability.My opinion is just to exclude the observations to get a better estimate of additive variability. On a side note Additive+Proportortional is similar to a logno

Re: [NMusers] RE: Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread Nick Holford
Yaming, Matt, I would do exactly what Yaming has done already. Treat the pre-dose measurements as true observations for when the predicted conc is zero. It is not true to say they provide no information about model parameters. They are the best way to improve your estimate of the additive er

Re: [NMusers] RE: Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread Tatosian, Daniel
Hi Nick, I disagree with the suggestion to use exact zero for predose. Residual error models are, for a perfect structural model, a model for assay uncertainty. By including many observations at predose as precise zero, you are modeling non assay observations with an assay model. Result is your

Re: [NMusers] RE: Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread Nick Holford
Daniel Sorry -- thanks for picking that up! It seems I didn't read what Yaming wrote properly. Perhaps because I couldn't imagine why anyone would replace a real measurement with zero! Beal pointed out the folly of replacing BLQ values with zero in 2001. Notice that I said to use the pre-do

RE: [NMusers] RE: Proper way to handle the pre-first dose PK observation for non-endogenous drug

2012-11-07 Thread Mats Karlsson
Dear all, I guess to know what is the best way to treat these data you need to know something more about the assay than what has been told. If the additive error component is related in any way to drug being administrated (such as when metabolites may interfere), then Matt's position may more rele