RE: Whats so difficult about ISSU

k From: Tim Jackson [mailto:jackson@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 9:36 AM To: Kasper Adel Cc: Frank Bulk; NANOG list Subject: Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU I would argue no. The Class 5 softswitches that are around now are off-the-shelf cPCI or ACTA hardware running Lin

RE: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Adel [mailto:karim.a...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2012 12:22 AM To: Frank Bulk Cc: NANOG list Subject: Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU Hi Frank, Is it because C5 softswitches have expensive hardware, advanced software and dual asics? I would have never imagined that any vendor is ca

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

t; -Original Message- > > From: Kasper Adel [mailto:karim.a...@gmail.com ] > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:23 PM > > To: NANOG list > > Subject: Whats so difficult about ISSU > > > > Hello, > > > > We've been hearing about ISSU

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

http://www.juniper.net/techpubs/en_US/junos/topics/concept/issu-oveview.html The Juniper ISSU guide. You need two things: 1. Separation of the control plane and forwarding plane 2. 2 routing engines in the same chassis -- the non active RE upgrades first, then when its up and running the acti

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Mon, 12 Nov 2012, Bryan Fields wrote: And they only have to process maybe 2mbit/s of control traffic during busy hour. The rest is handled by dedicated hardware/ASIC's. Each one has a fully redundant hardware circuit pack and a bunch of monitoring to switch over in case one fails. I'd i

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On 11/12/12 1:21 AM, Kasper Adel wrote: > Is it because C5 softswitches have expensive hardware, advanced software > and dual asics? I would have never imagined that any vendor is capable of > upgrading fpd's/ASICs ucode without a hit unless there are multiple chips > continuously syncing with each

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

s to be built with that in mind. > > Frank > > -Original Message- > From: Kasper Adel [mailto:karim.a...@gmail.com ] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:23 PM > To: NANOG list > Subject: Whats so difficult about ISSU > > Hello, > > We've been hearing abo

RE: Whats so difficult about ISSU

asper Adel [mailto:karim.a...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2012 5:23 PM To: NANOG list Subject: Whats so difficult about ISSU Hello, We've been hearing about ISSU for so many years and i didnt hear that any vendor was able to achieve it yet. What is the technical reason behind t

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On 11/8/12, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Phil wrote: > NSR isn't ISSU. The equipment vendors call upgrades with NSR failover, ISSU; if their marketing people feel that a 0.5 or 6 second hit is "good enough".. If you care about the 0.5 seconds, it's important you speak their lang

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 7:31 AM, Felipe Zanchet Grazziotin wrote: ... > If your silicon vendor supports BSD's, of course. > From my (little) experience most vendors SDK will be available to > Linux and vxWorks but not BSD. > This limits companies that are building equipments based on third > parti

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On 11/11/12, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote: > Which isn't really a problem, none of the control plane stuff needs > to run in the kernel. The only thing that needs to run in the > kernel is the device driver(s) to talk to the forwarding plane Yes. But avoiding kernel mode is a consideration, eve

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 12:41 PM, Joe Greco wrote: > If you're on supported CPU's, the BSD's are likely to be a better > choice if you want to avoid legal entanglements. Otherwise, if you > don't mind code disclosure, Linux supports more platforms. Both > are relatively mature, feature-full oper

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 1:45 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: > ... Or is GPL not really problematic > issue, as you can hide your intellectual property in binary kernel modules? GPLv2, which governs the Linux Kernel, does tolorate use of binary kernel modules under some conditions (the classic example is th

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

> On (2012-11-11 08:50 +0900), Randy Bush wrote: > > linux has become a fad in the vendor community. it seems to lend > > legitimacy to their products in some way, witness this discussion. > > but linux has the gpl poison. so, any code that they wish to keep > > proprietary is in userland. > > I

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

In article you write: >linux has become a fad in the vendor community. it seems to lend >legitimacy to their products in some way, witness this discussion. >but linux has the gpl poison. so, any code that they wish to keep >proprietary is in userland. Which isn't really a problem, none of the c

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Saku Ytti (saku) writes: > > I've sometimes wondered why Linux is so common, and not FreeBSD. Historical reasons and good timing. > Is it easier to hire people if you use Linux? As opposed to... ? > Or is GPL not really problematic issue, > as you can hide your intellectual pro

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

> I've sometimes wondered why Linux is so common, and not FreeBSD. juniper is currently freebsd > Is it easier to hire people if you use Linux? i think it's just perceived as having more customer acceptance. > Or is GPL not really problematic issue my lawyer tells me it is very problematic ra

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-11 08:50 +0900), Randy Bush wrote: > linux has become a fad in the vendor community. it seems to lend > legitimacy to their products in some way, witness this discussion. > but linux has the gpl poison. so, any code that they wish to keep > proprietary is in userland. I've sometimes

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

> NANOG56? I only found RPKI Propagation by you. Direct URL would be > appreciated. apologies. i slid a second preso into my time allotment, and i thought the archive maintainer was going to catenate them. here is the second preso, some measurements of the tcp behavior of bgp. http://archive

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

> > as to whether ios/xe is rtc, you may want to see my preso at the last > > nanog. > > NANOG56? I only found RPKI Propagation by you. Direct URL would be > appreciated. Look towards the end of the presentation and you'll find run to completion... Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sth...@nethel

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On 10/11/2012 16:48, Saku Ytti wrote: > If native process separation and even native thread separation cannot be > made scale (I'm highly suspicious why it couldn't). As the old joke goes, once you introduce threading to fix a problem, you end up with evmeonr eprboelm.s > Then I wonder why > vend

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-11 00:14 +0900), Randy Bush wrote: > as to whether ios/xe is rtc, you may want to see my preso at the last > nanog. NANOG56? I only found RPKI Propagation by you. Direct URL would be appreciated. But I really have 0 doubt that IOSd is run-to-completion, exactly like RPD is. But IOSd

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

as to whether ios/xe is rtc, you may want to see my preso at the last nanog. randy

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-10 10:43 +0200), Saku Ytti wrote: > > > So each IOSd process 'show proc cpu' are separate threads to linux? > > Yep. The "show platform software..." commands are used to look at things in > > To be honest I'm very sceptical about this. I fully accept that IOSd is > multithreaded. But

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-09 20:24 -0500), Pete Lumbis wrote: > > So each IOSd process 'show proc cpu' are separate threads to linux? > Yep. The "show platform software..." commands are used to look at things in To be honest I'm very sceptical about this. I fully accept that IOSd is multithreaded. But I'm hav

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

> So each IOSd process 'show proc cpu' are separate threads to linux? Yep. The "show platform software..." commands are used to look at things in software, outside of IOSd. Don't get me started on how absurd the command lengths are. === ASR#show proc cpu CPU utilization fo

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-09 16:58 -0500), Pete Lumbis wrote: > I do not believe that the linux scheduler is run to completion, but to > be honest I'm not 100% certain. I know a big reason for IOS-XE was to It certainly is not, I'm not proposing it is. I'm saying it is bit of a stretch to believe that IOSd do

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Saku Ytti wrote: >> For IOS-XE we have Linux in charge of the scheduler with a >> multi-threaded IOSd process responsible for the control plane. I'm > > I'm sceptical if this means there isn't normal IOS run-to-completion > scheduler, certainly not all ios processe

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-09 13:33 -0500), Pete Lumbis wrote: > I apologize, I realized I forgot a critical word in my reply. > > The new Cisco OSes are /NOT/ run to completion. I did not notice that :). I assumed not was there, and was arguing that I thought IOS XE still is. I know XR and NX-OS aren't. > Fo

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

I apologize, I realized I forgot a critical word in my reply. The new Cisco OSes are /NOT/ run to completion. For IOS-XE we have Linux in charge of the scheduler with a multi-threaded IOSd process responsible for the control plane. I'm not familiar with movements to put processes directly on top

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-09 08:02 -0500), Pete Lumbis wrote: > I can't speak for JunOS, but none of the "new" IOS operating systems > are run to completion. This includes IOS-XE, XR and NX-OS. Really? I thought IOS XE is Linux control-plane on top of where you have monolithic IOSd process? I had chat with Mic

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

I can't speak for JunOS, but none of the "new" IOS operating systems are run to completion. This includes IOS-XE, XR and NX-OS. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:36 AM, Saku Ytti wrote: > When we start on that premise, we can do silly things like write > run-to-completion operating systems like IOS and Ju

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On (2012-11-09 01:22 +0200), Kasper Adel wrote: > We've been hearing about ISSU for so many years and i didnt hear that any > vendor was able to achieve it yet. > > What is the technical reason behind that? I'd say generally code quality in routers is really really bad, I'm not sure why this is.

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

In vendor-speak ISSU usually refers to 'minimal traffic impact' upgrade. Definition of minimal varies from vendor to vendor and from upgrade to upgrade, depending of which parts of the code need to be upgraded. In general, traffic loss during ISSU is an order of magnitude less than by reloading the

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 8:13 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Phil wrote: > >> The major vendors have figured it out for the most part by moving to >> stateful synchronization between control plane modules and implementing >> non-stop routing. > > > NSR isn't ISSU. > > ISSU conta

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

On Thu, 8 Nov 2012, Phil wrote: The major vendors have figured it out for the most part by moving to stateful synchronization between control plane modules and implementing non-stop routing. NSR isn't ISSU. ISSU contains the wording "in service". 6 seconds of outage isn't "in service". 0.5

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Heh you will find vendors avoid using the term hitless. I can't think of any router which supports ISSU that is truly hitless. The ASR9K ISSU states it will sustain less than 6 seconds of loss... ISSU is still rife with caveats and incompatibilities as well if you are doing more advanced thin

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

I know some people here have mentioned good experiences with ISSU on Nexus. I don't doubt that it usually works right, but in my latest experience with upgrading NX-OS on dual-SUP'ed 7k's, it was "hitless" if, by "hitless", you mean ~20% packet loss while troubleshooting with TAC before we found

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Does that mean they are the only vendor capable of doing this today? I am interested in the technology behind this if this is something public, any ideas? Thx On Friday, November 9, 2012, Kenneth McRae wrote: > I have performed micro code upgrades using ISSU on the Juniper platform. > > On Thu,

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

I have performed micro code upgrades using ISSU on the Juniper platform. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Kasper Adel wrote: > What i was asking is full ISSU, even with micro code. I assume between > Major release there will be microcode upgrade most of the time. > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:48

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

I have executed successfully on the MX960 with no issues.. EX on the other hand, really depends on your version of JunOS. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 4:19 PM, Alex wrote: > http://www.juniper.net/**techpubs/en_US/junos/topics/** > concept/issu-oveview.html

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

What i was asking is full ISSU, even with micro code. I assume between Major release there will be microcode upgrade most of the time. On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Phil wrote: > The major vendors have figured it out for the most part by moving to > stateful synchronization between control pl

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

The major vendors have figured it out for the most part by moving to stateful synchronization between control plane modules and implementing non-stop routing. ALU has supported ISSU on minor releases for many years and just added support for major releases. The Cisco Nexus ISSU works well,

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Juniper also offers it on the EX virtual switching platform. Works if you have the correct version of JunOS. On Thu, Nov 8, 2012 at 3:38 PM, Zaid Ali wrote: > Cisco Nexus platform does it pretty well so they have achieved it. > > Zaid > > On Nov 8, 2012, at 3:22 PM, Kasper Adel wrote: > > > Hel

Re: Whats so difficult about ISSU

Cisco Nexus platform does it pretty well so they have achieved it. Zaid On Nov 8, 2012, at 3:22 PM, Kasper Adel wrote: > Hello, > > We've been hearing about ISSU for so many years and i didnt hear that any > vendor was able to achieve it yet. > > What is the technical reason behind that? >

Whats so difficult about ISSU

Hello, We've been hearing about ISSU for so many years and i didnt hear that any vendor was able to achieve it yet. What is the technical reason behind that? If i understand correctly, the way it will be done would be simply to have extra ASICs/HW to be able to build dual circuits accessing the