On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 01:04:28PM -0600, Mike Hammett wrote:
> I don't even know where this conversation has gone anymore.
You have reached a terminal point in the NANOG mailing list state
machine: NOP-ARGUE
Many paths lead to this state, and it isn't unique to NANOG.
The sub-state is: I-TH
"Matthew Walster"
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2023 7:00:07 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Mike Hammett wrote:
> " With plain IP routers?"
> Yes, or, well, relatively plain, depending on the implementation.
As completely plain routers have no difficulty
Mike Hammett wrote:
" With plain IP routers?"
Yes, or, well, relatively plain, depending on the implementation.
As completely plain routers have no difficulty to treat a
default route, it is a waste of money and effort to try to
have not so plain routers to do so regardless of whether the
r
"Masataka Ohta"
To: "Matthew Walster"
Cc: "nanog list"
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2023 8:44:59 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Matthew Walster wrote:
>>> No... It's action based. You can send it a different route, you can
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2023 8:44:59 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Matthew Walster wrote:
>>> No... It's action based. You can send it a different route, you can
>>> replicate it, you can drop it, you can mutate it...
>>
>> Replicatio
- Original Message -
From: "Matthew Walster"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "NANOG" , "Forrest Christian (List Account)"
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 10:10:56 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023, 18:38 Mike Hammett, &l
Matthew Walster wrote:
No... It's action based. You can send it a different route, you can
replicate it, you can drop it, you can mutate it...
Replication is a poor alternative for multicast.
You conveniently ignore things like IDS, port mirroring, things like that.
Wrong. Instead, you co
On Sat, 7 Jan 2023, 20:52 Masataka Ohta,
wrote:
> Matthew Walster wrote:
>
> > No... It's action based. You can send it a different route, you can
> > replicate it, you can drop it, you can mutate it...
>
> Replication is a poor alternative for multicast.
>
You conveniently ignore things like ID
Matthew Walster wrote:
No... It's action based. You can send it a different route, you can
replicate it, you can drop it, you can mutate it...
Replication is a poor alternative for multicast.
For other actions, why, do you think, they are performed?
Just for fun? Or to differentiate treatmen
tt" Cc: "Mel Beckman" , "NANOG" Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 9:51:43 AMSubject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)Gotcha. Setup a Quagga/Bird box. Do your top talker analysis , use that box to inject the routes you deem important with communities. On your routers , create polic
Freertr folks have just published (I didn’t look into the details of their implementation though):“rare/freertr just got fib compression.. in our nren, the v4 table can be compressed from 900k to 260k, the v6 table from 160k to 52k... the tofino2 asic with our dataplane code ( https://lnkd.in/dJrHV
On Sat, 7 Jan 2023, 03:17 Masataka Ohta,
wrote:
> Matthew Walster wrote:
>
> > it's just one aspect of it. Some use it for
> > classifying guest traffic etc.
>
> If special path is provided for guest or otherwise
> prioritized traffic, that's QoS routing.
>
No... It's action based. You can send
Matthew Walster wrote:
SDN does not imply QoS routing,
As long as the shortest path is comfortable enough, no, it
does not have to.
it's just one aspect of it. Some use it for
classifying guest traffic etc.
If special path is provided for guest or otherwise
prioritized traffic, that's QoS
/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --------------
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023, 18:38 Mike Hammett, wrote:
> I suspect it always will have value, whether it's peering routers, POP
> routers, multi-homed customer routers, etc.
>
Indeed. It's not "clean" but it is an acceptable tradeoff if you know what
you're doing, and how traffic sloshes around etc.
I
WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Tom Beecher"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 9:51:43 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Gotcha.
Setup a Quagga/Bird box. Do your top talker analysis
linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --------
ANOG"
To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)"
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 9:34:16 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023, 11:25 Forrest Christian (List Account), <
li...@packetflux.com > wrote:
In the end though, I do
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023, 11:25 Forrest Christian (List Account), <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
> In the end though, I do expect that the hassle of setting up and managing
> a solution like this is likely to result in most people deciding that it
> isn't worth the extra complexity just to avoid upgrad
ntelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Tom Beecher"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 9:16:19 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023, 17:07 Masataka Ohta,
wrote:
> Christopher Morrow wrote:
>
> > Some of the reasoning behind 'i need/want to do SDN things' is 'low fib
> > device' sort of reasonings.
>
> What?
>
> SDN is a poor alternative for those who can't construct a
> network with fully automated QoS guar
gt; <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Mel Beckman"
> *To: *"Mike Hammett"
> *Cc: *"Joe Maimon" , "NANOG"
> *Sent: *T
Christopher Morrow wrote:
Some of the reasoning behind 'i need/want to do SDN things' is 'low fib
device' sort of reasonings.
What?
SDN is a poor alternative for those who can't construct a
network with fully automated QoS guarantee.
Even with SDN, QoS guarantee implies QoS routing requiring
otherswisp ] [
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg ]
From: "Mike Hammett"
To: "NANOG"
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2023 9:43:58 AM
Subject: SDN Internet Router (sir)
https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir
I came across this over the weekend. Given that the projec
www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg ]
From: "Mel Beckman"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Joe Maimon" , "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 4:36:09 PM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Mike,
Thanks for that useful example. On a side
ix>
> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>
> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg&g
Mike Hammett
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
And here is another interesting approach Ive left open in my browser window for
who knows how long
https://inog.net/files/iNOG14v_oliver_sourcerouting.pdf
The problem with BGP is that local actors can exact global costs trivially by
co
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
------------
*From: *"Mel Beckman"
*To: *"Mike Hammett"
*Cc: *"Joe Maimon" , "NANOG"
*Sent: *Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:54:27 PM
*Subj
l/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
____________
From: "Mel Beckman"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Joe Maimon" , "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:54:27 PM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Mike,
I’m not sure I understand what you mea
<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
>
<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
> *From: *"Christopher Morrow"
> *To: *"Mi
ot;Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Joe Maimon" , "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:54:27 PM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Mike,
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “suboptimal“ routing. Even though
the Internet uses AS path length for routing, many of thos
es/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
From: "Joe Maimon"
To: "Mike Hammett" , "Christopher Morrow"
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:30:40 PM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (s
erswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
>
>
> *From: *"Christopher Morrow"
> *To: *"Mike Hammett&quo
*To: *"Mike Hammett"
*Cc: *"Tom Beecher" , "NANOG"
*Sent: *Thursday, January 5, 2023 12:27:08 PM
*Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 11:18 AM Mike Hammett <mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Initially, my thought was to use commu
rry a full table today
(or tomorrow).
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Joe Maimon"
To: "Mike Hammett" , "Tom Beecher"
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday
*From: *"Tom Beecher"
*To: *"Mike Hammett"
*Cc: *"Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
*Sent: *Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM
*Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
"The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in
assuming that
hat's in the FIB and let
the rest of the router work as the rest of the router would.
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Christopher Morrow"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Tom
On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 11:18 AM Mike Hammett wrote:
> Initially, my thought was to use community filtering to push just IXes,
> customers, and defaults throughout the network, but that's obviously still
> sub-optimal.
>
> I'd be surprised if a last mile network had a ton of traffic going to any
>
;NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 10:30:35 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Mike,
Your original question was:
“Given that the project was abandoned six years ago, are there any other
efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently placing routes into FIBs of
l
RQYNyLwntZg>
From: "Tom Beecher"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
"The right tool for the job" gets into a religious a
ke Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Mike Hammett"
To: "Tom Beecher"
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 10:02:40 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Th
Brothers WISP
- Original Message -
From: "Tom Beecher"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
Sent: Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
"The right tool for the job" gets into a re
> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> --
> *From: *"Tom Beecher"
> *To: *"Mike Hammett"
>
t;Mel Beckman" , "NANOG"
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:36:58 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
Disagree that it’s a line in the sand. It’s use the right tool for the job.
If a device is low FIB, it’s that way for a reason. There are plenty of ways to
massage
On Wed, Jan 4, 2023 at 8:37 AM Tom Beecher wrote:
> Disagree that it’s a line in the sand. It’s use the right tool for the
> job.
>
> If a device is low FIB, it’s that way for a reason. There are plenty of
> ways to massage that with policy and software, depending on capabilities ,
> but at the e
WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>
> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
> ----------
> *From: *"Mel Beckman"
> *To: *"Mike Hammett"
> *Cc: *"NA
If your BGP router supports sflow or netflow and includes ASN in those, you
can use
akvorado, as-stat, or elastiflow.
Le mar. 3 janv. 2023 à 12:16, Peter Phaal a écrit :
> https://github.com/sflow-rt/active-routes
>
> Inspired by SIR, but uses Bird multi-table capability to separate RIB/FIB
> ro
ginal Message -
From: "Mel Beckman"
To: "Mike Hammett"
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:57:34 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory and rapid prefix
search silicon in backbone r
Cc: "NANOG"
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:57:34 AM
Subject: Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)
It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory and rapid prefix
search silicon in backbone routers. The entire Internet routing table consumes
at most a few gigabytes when fu
https://github.com/sflow-rt/active-routes
Inspired by SIR, but uses Bird multi-table capability to separate RIB/FIB
routes.
On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 7:47 AM Mike Hammett wrote:
> https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir
>
> I came across this over the weekend. Given that the project was abandoned
> six y
It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory and rapid prefix
search silicon in backbone routers. The entire Internet routing table consumes
at most a few gigabytes when fully structured (and only a few hundred Mbytes
stored flat). That’s less memory than your average laptop sp
https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir
I came across this over the weekend. Given that the project was abandoned six
years ago, are there any other efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently
placing routes into FIBs of low-FIB capacity devices?
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing So
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