#x27;s enough
> Internet to go around for everyone, whether they use the service or not.
Well, it may not be perfect, but it is at least a "Sitefinder done (more)
right" than the last spectacle. I have my reservations.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee
party, which is what net neutrality is largely
about.
> (I've wondered for quite some time if "net neutrality" implies that
> Ebay or Google must carry third party traffic on their corporate
> networks, by the way.)
No, why would it? (note that I may be missing something; I&
zaofbrookfield.com" or "martyspizza.biz".
In Marty's case, they don't even have a domain name, but you can find
their web page easily enough via search engines.
Of course, this leaves some questions, such as what happens for e-mail
purposes (3LD? works) or when
> On Jul 13, 2006, at 12:19 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
> > I don't really think it is entirely appropriate that a child who is
> > looking
> > for information on the White House could land somewhere obscene
> > through
> > entering a web address that appears
If it is important, it ought
to be encrypted, for example.
This is really neither new nor shocking to anyone who has been working
with TCP/IP for any length of time.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the app
ably don't have a lot of realistic options
other than what they already do, given the sheer complexity of it all.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won&
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > And, incidentally, I do consider this a false positive. If any average
> > person might be tripped up by it, and we certainly have a lot of average
> > users on IRC, then it's bad. So, the answer is, "at least one fal
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > I think there's a bit of a difference, in that when you're using every
> > commercial WiFi hotspot and hotel login system, that they redirect
> > everything. Would you truly consider that to be the same thing as one
&g
> On 7/23/07, Joe Greco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > All right, here we go. Please explain the nature of the bot on my freshly
> > installed (last night) FreeBSD 6.2R box.
>
> %age of freshly installed freebsd 6.2R boxes v/s random windows boxes
> on cox cable?
the wrong block. Demanding
> zero chance of error before ISPs doing anything just means ISPs won't do
> anything.
"Think before act."
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple'
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > So how do you connect to the real IRC server, then? Remember that most
> > end users are not nslookup-wielding shell commandos who can figure out
> > whois and look up the IP.
>
> If those users are so technically unsophisti
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > I can't help but notice you totally avoided responding to what I wrote;
> > I would have to take this to mean that you know that it is fundamentally
> > unreasonable to expect users to set up their own recursers to wo
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> So are you claiming no bots ever try to connect to that server?
> >
> > I don't care if bots ever try to connect to that server. I can effectively
> > stop the bots from connecting to servers by shutting down the
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> Although this seems to be the first bit mistake in over two years, does
> >> that make the practice unacceptable as another tool to respond to Bots?
> >
> > The practice of blocking public EFnet servers?
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 02:48:05PM -0500, Joe Greco wrote:
> >
> > > On 7/23/07, Joe Greco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > All right, here we go. Please explain the nature of the bot on my
> > > > freshly
> > > > installed
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > Hint: there is no bot. My traffic is being redirected regardless. Were I
> > a Cox customer (and I'm not), I'd be rather ticked off.
>
> Hint: the bots are on computers connecting to the irc server, not the irc
>
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> Please enlighten me.
> >
> > Intercept and inspect IRC packets. If they join a botnet channel, turn on
> > a flag in the user's account. Place them in a garden (no IRC, no nothing,
> > except McAfee or your
> > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > > > I can't help but notice you totally avoided responding to what I
> wrote;
> > > > I would have to take this to mean that you know that it is
> fundamentally
> > > > unreasonable to exp
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > "Some privacy advocates" will be upset with ISP's doing what Cox is doing.
> > Maybe you missed that. If we assume that it is okay for Cox to actually
> > intercept the IRC sessions of their users, we're wa
> Quoting Joe Greco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> > And, incidentally, I do consider this a false positive. If any average
> >> > person might be tripped up by it, and we certainly have a lot of average
> >>
> On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > > > Yes, when there are better solutions to the problem at hand.
> > >
> > > Please enlighten me.
> >
> > Intercept and inspect IRC packets. If they join a botnet channel, turn on
> > a flag in the
> On 7/24/07, Joe Greco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The problem is isolating the traffic in question. Since you DO NOT HAVE
> > GIGABITS OF TRAFFIC destined for IRC servers, this becomes a Networking
> > 101-style question. A /32 host route is going to be effecti
> On Jul 24, 2007, at 8:59 AM, Joe Greco wrote:
> > But, hey, it can be done, and with an amount of effort that isn't
> > substantially different from the
> > amount of work Cox would have had to do to accomplish what they did.
>
> Actually, it's re
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > So I'm supposed to invent a solution that does WAY MORE than what Cox
> > was trying to accomplish, and then you'll listen? Forget that (or
> > pay me).
>
> Since it was a false positive,
Fact not in evidence,
> On Tue, 24 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > > > > > Yes, when there are better solutions to the problem at hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > Please enlighten me.
> > > >
> > > >
27;ve no experience with T-Mobile.
>
> T-Mobile dropped their TAP access several years ago.
Well, good, because they were pretty cruddy at it.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give
ble
to dismiss a page with a single keystroke, and overall I preferred the way
the Mot Adv Elite used to work.
Anyways, this is an interesting and useful topic, which I'm watching with
some interest.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We
il the advent of X2, which required
T1's to a Total Control chassis, at which point they started to
migrate to rackmount gear (they had no space to go beyond 1200
analog Couriers anyways).
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it
ng it so easy to debug what's going on when something
goes wrong.
The design for your facility is best based on the unique situation present
at your facility.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the appl
nection certainly makes the ISP business model easier, but
in the long term, isn't going to work out well for the Internet's
continuing evolution.
And before anyone accuses me of sounding overly critical towards the AU
ISP's, let me point out that we've dropped the ball in a majo
> On 4-Oct-2007, at 1416, Joe Greco wrote:
> > It'd be interesting to know what the average utilization of an
> > unlimited
> > US broadband customer was, compared to the average utilization of an
> > unlimited AU broadband customer. It would be interesting,
They'd be lucky to pull any number
of dollars these days. It's a planned expense. As for physical plant,
I'd imagine that a large amount of that is also a planned expense, and is
being paid down (or already paid off), so arguing that this is somewhere
that a lot of extra expense will exist
ld seem like a larger payoff to simply make sure sufficient
capacity existed to move packets as required, since this not only solves
the "local packet" problem you suggest, but the more general overall
problem that ISP's face.
> And P2P is the main way to
^curren
> On Fri, Oct 05, 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
>
> > > Technically the user can use the connection to it's maximum theoretical
> > > speed as much as they like, however, if an ISP has a quota set at
> > > 12G/month, it just means that the cost is passed a
> Joe Greco wrote:
> >> Technically the user can use the connection to it's maximum
> >> theoretical speed as much as they like, however, if an ISP has a
> >> quota set at 12G/month, it just means that the cost is passed along
> >> to them when they e
t most of you would prefer to do
> business with my constraints than with yours.
That's nice from *your* point of view, as an ISP, but from the end-user's
point of view, it discourages the development and deployment of the next
killer app, which is the point that I've been ma
and making enough money to fund expansion and eat is harder at
> a non US ISP. It's harder, but there's nothing wrong with it. It compels
> you to get inventive.
The costs to provide DSL up here in Milwaukee are kind of insane, as
you tend to get it on both ends. However, I'm
sible.
However, it is equally possible that there'll be some newfangled killer
app that comes along. At some point, this will present a problem. All
the self-justification in the world will not matter when the customers
want to be able to do something that uses up a little more bandwidth.
SPECIALLY* when the rest
> of the world is subsidizing your domestic Internet by paying for all
> the international transit.
Interesting thing about how the market works, isn't it. It seems that
there's substantially more value to be had in AU connecting to the US
than there
> On Sat, Oct 06, 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > However, it is equally possible that there'll be some newfangled killer
> > app that comes along. At some point, this will present a problem. All
> > the self-justification in the world will not matter when the customers
problem in general. I *am* interested
in the impact that it has on the evolution of the Internet.
That you're so pleased to be "diverse" in a way that makes it more
difficult for your users to join the modern era and use modern apps
is sufficient to make me wonder. There's
e as being
a precursor to video things-to-come. Looking at whether or not AU has
stifled new uses for the Internet, or has otherwise impacted the way users
use the Internet, could be interesting and potentially valuable
information to futurists and even other operators.
... JG
--
Joe Greco -
possible to make a video call to
your cousin who owns a farm outside of town, but doing so probably
requires you to be signed up for satellite based broadband, or long
distance wireless. Both services exist, and people do use them. I
know one guy in rural Illinois who maintains a radio tower so he
> $quoted_author = "Joe Greco" ;
> >
> > > >That's approximately correct. The true answer to the thought experiment
> > > >is "address those problems, don't continue to blindly pay those costs and
> > > >complain about h
> On Mon, 8 Oct 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> > It's arrogant to fix brokenness? Because I'm certainly there. In my
> > experience, if you don't bother to address problems, they're very likely
> > to remain, especially when money is involved on the opp
> On Oct 10, 2007, at 5:18 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:
> > On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> One of the biggest challenges for the Internet has got to be the
> >> steadily
> >> increasing storage market, combined with the continued development of
n.
I could even sue you for releasing 240/4 and causing me economic harm by
forcing me to upgrade a bunch of infrastructure. Funny how that blade
can cut both ways.
> We should do everything we can to remove roadblocks which would cause
> IPv4 to run out sooner,
Where practical. This ...
t knowledge of
network classes is built into software, and the subtle ways in which things
may break, even if they appear to "work" for some crappy definition of
"work"?
Please don't try to re-engineer the entire IPv4 Internet because you'd like
a small additional alloc
gt; But for the owners of those dark
> corners it makes economic sense so why should anyone try and convert
> them to the one true Internet architecture?
Possibly because they want to be connected to it? Just a thought.
If you want to be part of the community, it is probably a good idea t
> Joe,
> On Oct 18, 2007, at 8:49 AM, Joe Greco wrote:
> > The ROI on the move to v6 is immense compared to the ROI on the move
> > to v4-240+, which will surely only benefit a few.
>
> I am told by people who have inside knowledge that one of the issues
> they are
e's a certain amount of freedom to recycle as much of
the existing IP space as is needed.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you
> Or simply ask IANA to open up 256/5. After all, this is just an entry in a
> table, should be easy to do, especially if it is done on Apr 1st. ;-)
DOH! Point: you.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one b
d networking gear - that's the
problem.
If you just want to discuss your clever Linux patches, the Linux
mailing lists are >>> thataway.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give
technical issue." Deploying it
on a wider scale ... not so simple.
What kind of customer would actively solicit an IP address assignment
that won't reach random segments of the Internet?
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call
ring.
I simultaneously think that P2P is a fantastic technology from a showing-
off-the-idea-behind-the-Internet viewpoint, and that in the end, the
Internet will need to be able to handle more applications like this, as
we see things like videophones etc. pop up.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.ne
signers to improve
> >> those particular applications.
> >
> > Good luck with that.
>
> It took a while, but it worked with the UDP audio/video protocol folks who
> used to stress networks. Eventually those protocol designers learned to
> control their applicat
ckle, there's something very wrong.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-ma
> Joe Greco wrote:
> > Well, because when you promise someone an Internet connection, they usually
> > expect it to work. Is it reasonable for Comcast to unilaterally decide that
> > my P2P filesharing of my family photos and video clips is bad?
> >
>
> Comc
I have no doubt that you'll be able to
burst higher, but I'm a bit skeptical about continuous use.
Noticed about two months ago that AT&T started putting kiosks for U-verse
at local malls and movie theatres. Coincidence?
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwau
providers, etc.? The implications of the so-called net neutrality
issues are just one example of future issues.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won&#
imply cannot do it, since the available capacity on your last
mile simply isn't sufficient for the numbers you're selling, even if you
are able to buy cheaper upstream bandwidth for it.
Perhaps that's just an argument to fix the last mile.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services
types of, all} traffic,
3) Change user behaviours, or
4) Add some more capacity
Come to mind as being the major available options. ALL of these can be
effective. EACH of them has specific downsides.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We c
>
> On Fri, 26 Oct 2007, Paul Ferguson wrote:
> > The part of this discussion that really infuriates me (and Joe
> > Greco has hit most of the salient points) is the deceptiveness
> > in how ISPs "underwrite" the service their customers subscribe to.
> >
&
frequently), Yahoo!
(infrequently), and other places where the mail stream consists of
a low volume (<10/day) of transactional and support e-mail directly
arising from user-purchased services, on an IP address that had
never previously sent e-mail - ever.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Ser
be quite ideal for
this, but wouldn't it be much less of a technical challenge to develop a
PAC or PAC-like framework to do this in an idealized fashion, and then
actually do so?
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the
45.
With sufficient speed, you can make up for many sins, including a
relatively naive implementation. With that in mind, I'd guess that you
are more likely to be successful than not. The downside is that if it
doesn't work out, you can recycle that PC into a more traditional role.
.
g complaints
about being unable to reach a destination, it's got to be configured
correctly ... right?
Consider it life on the Internet. Do their job for them.
Around here, we've been doing BCP38 since before there was a BCP38.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI
x27;s all right to have this problem, but I would
certainly encourage you to try sending along a brief note without any
BL-listed URL's, to see if you can get a response that way.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one
rk. Sadly, it is
frequently assumed that if you cannot configure your system to do X,
then it's all right to not do X, regardless of what the RFC's say.
The need to be able to accept unfiltered recipients has certain
implications for mail operations, such as that it could be &qu
I can't find the
rationale from the end-user's side to allocate a /48. I can maybe see
it if you want to justify it from the provider's side, the cost of dealing
with multiple prefix sizes.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"
for any home user that wants more than one subnet
> /48 for any home user that can show need.
I'd say skip the /64 and /48. Don't do the /64, as future-proofing. A
/48 is just something I cannot see need for, given the number of addresses
available as a /56, unless the "home user"
you will receive it or be told no.
So, as I said...
> Most likely, that is how most such v6 gateways will function.
/Possibly/. It would be much more likely to be that way if everyone
was issued large CIDR blocks, every router was willing to delegate a
prefix, and there was no call
yone who thinks otherwise is welcome to explain to
me what's going to happen in the case where there are no P's to D.
I will leave the difference between corporate and residential as an exercise
to the reader; suffice it to say that the answers are rather obvious in the
same manner.
...
d absolutely like to see DHCP PD be usable for environments where
multiple prefixes are available and allowed, but I believe we're going
to also be needing to look at bridging.
There's /going/ to be some crummy ISP somewhere that only allocates end
users a /64, or there's /going/ t
#x27;s to at least consider the issues, and it will most
likely force users to buy into technologies that allow them to do what they
want. And inside a /64, you have sufficient space that there's probably
nothing you can't do. :-)
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwauk
posing that RIR's cease the practice of charging different
amounts for different allocation sizes, please feel free to shepherd that
through the approvals process, and then I will certainly agree that there
is no longer a meaningful cost differential for the purposes of this
discussion.
uch money does the ISP really want to throw at extra address
space? (Do you want me to discuss naivety now?)
And just /how/ is this in any way similar to Ethernet MAC addresses,
again? Maybe I'm just too slow and can't see how "fixed cost" ==
"variable cost." I won
ones. :-/
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN)
With 24 million
> Joe Greco wrote:
> [..]
> > Okay, here, let me make it reaaally simple.
>
> Yes, indeed lets make it reaaally simple for you:
>
> > If your ISP has been delegated a /48 (admittedly unlikely, but possible=
> )
> > for $1,250/year, a
> both
> > cases, while the device someone who has relied on PD is going to break
> > when it isn't available.
> >
> Assuming that PD is available is naive. However, assuming it is not is
> equally naive.
No, it's not equally naive. The bridging scenario is
rts of this can we tackle through RIR policy? RFC requirements?
Best practice? Customer education? ( :-) ) Other ideas?
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] t
er field into the lower bits of the address field...
I'm sure someone has a name for this already, but I have no idea what it
is.
Anyways, I suggest you run over and read
http://www.6net.org/publications/standards/draft-vandevelde-v6ops-nap-01.txt
as it is useful foundation material to explain I
e that you'll provide to your customers. If you've made
promises, then you're simply in the unenviable position of needing to
make good on those. Operating an IP network with a basic SLA like this
can be a bit of a challenge. You have to be prepared to actually make
good on it
> Joe Greco wrote,
> > There are lots of things that could heavily stress your upload channel.
> > Things I've seen would include:
> >
> > 1) Sending a bunch of full-size pictures to all your friends and family,
> >which might not seem too bad
he year (don't think TiVo? Maybe Apple, then... who
knows?) Downloads "interesting" content for local storage. Everyone's
buzzing about it. The lucky 10% buy it.
Now the question that will come back to you is, why can't your network
deliver what's been promised?
The
ied and whined about how they were being undercut
by competitive LD carriers. They ... adapted. Can you? Will you?
And yes, I realize that this borders on unfair-to-the-(W)ISP, but if
you are incapable of considering and contemplating these sorts of
questions, then that's a bad thing.
..
ly began offering a 20M symmetrical FiOS
product. There must be some people who feel differently.
So, do the "modulations" of your "access technologies" dictate what your
users are going to want to do with their Internet in the future, or is it
possible that you'll have to
What exactly does this imply, though, from a networking point of view?
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marke
> On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:43:12 -0500
> "William Herrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Jan 14, 2008 5:25 PM, Joe Greco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > So users who rarely use their connection are more profitable to the ISP.
> > >
>
> Joe Greco wrote:
> > Time to stop selling the "always on" connections, then, I guess, because
> > it is "always on" - not P2P - which is the fat man never leaving. P2P
> > is merely the fat man eating a lot while he's there.
>
> As long a
geo-DNS service. The ones
I've done in the past simply built in knowledge of the networks in question,
and where such information wasn't available, took "best guess" and then may
have done a little research after the fact for future queries. This isn't
as comprehensive
> Joe Greco wrote:
> > I have no idea what the networking equivalent of thirty-seven half-eaten
> > bags of Cheetos is, can't even begin to imagine what the virtual equivalent
> > of my couch is, etc. Your metaphor doesn't really make any sense to me,
> >
it at a higher level? (I can hear everyone
groaning now, and some purist somewhere probably having fits)
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't co
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joe Greco) writes:
> > ...
> > So, anyways, would it be entertaining to discuss the relative merits of
> > various DNS implementations that attempt to provide geographic answers
> > to requests, versus doing it at a higher level? (I can hear ever
that gets wired in by IP address, particularly on remote computers, would
make this a killer. That could include things such as firewall rules/ACL's,
recursion DNS server addresses, VPN adapters, VoIP equipment with stacks too
stupid to do DNS, etc.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network S
> On Thu, 17 Jan 2008 09:15:30 CST, Joe Greco said:
> > make this a killer. That could include things such as firewall rules/ACL's,
> > recursion DNS server addresses, VPN adapters, VoIP equipment with stacks too
> > stupid to do DNS, etc.
>
> I'll admi
get me a fair supply of stories best
> > told over a pitcher of Guinness down at the Undergroud..
>
> I prefer nice, hoppy ales to Guiness, but either works for stories..
Heh.
> > *Choosing* to hardcode rather than use DNS is one thing. *Having* to
> > hardcode because th
that's the top-of-the-line legacy (non-U-verse) AT&T
DSL offering; there are less expensive ones. Getting back to what Roderick
Beck said, AT&T is *effectively* offering mixed pricing schemes, simply by
offering various DSL speeds.
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Mi
To put it another way, they do not give you a better price per minute if
you go and deposit $2400 in your prepaid account. You can use your volume
discount argument once you come up with a compelling explanation for that.
;-)
... JG
--
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http:/
to contemplate commercial realities.
So, what can reasonably be done? Given what I've seen over the years,
I keep coming back to the idea that PI space allocations are not all
that far out of control, but the PA deaggregation situation is fairly
rough. There would also seem to be some things
1 - 100 of 134 matches
Mail list logo
