On 05 May 2014, at 21:25 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> -> can you lookup your local KDE code for the section in kfmclient.cpp?
Since I am using current KDE 4.12.4 here this change is - of course - present.
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On 05 May 2014, at 21:00 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> Many thanks for the update - let's see whether Jose can confirm this
> observation.
You’re welcome. We’ll see.
>> The only odd thing is that some kio_client apps clutter up the dock, which
>> I’ve also seen for kglobalaccel in konversation [1].
Hi Thomas,
On 23 Mar 2014, at 19:18 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> Another idea would be that OSX doesn't like the "!" prefix (no idea why
> componentchooser writes it - here. Works fine w/o as well)
Hmm, I think that’s indeed the problem!
I did this test once again with konqueror, but this time I s
On 28 Apr 2014, at 09:13 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> http://techbase.kde.org/KDE_System_Administration/Configuration_Files#Shell_Expansion
Thanks, Kevin, that link was indeed just what I needed!
:-)
Greets,
Marko
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Hi Vishesh,
On 23 Apr 2014, at 23:54 , Michael Pyne wrote:
> I'm not sure about [$]. There are other possibilities for a KConfig file
> besides [$e] but I don't think [$] is one of them.
could you please clarify what the [$] means on your wiki page for the folders
key?
Greets,
Marko
[1] http
Hi Vishesh,
On 23 Apr 2014, at 11:44 , Vishesh Handa wrote:
> [1] http://community.kde.org/Baloo/Configuration
is there a reason why this page isn’t linked on http://community.kde.org/Baloo
yet?
BTW, what is the meaning of “[$e]” and “[$]” in the respective “exclude
folders” and “folders” key
Hi Ben,
On 13 Apr 2014, at 13:45 , mk-li...@email.de wrote:
>> To build certain projects, the compiler will need to support C# and a
>> certain level of C++11 as well. The Mono bindings will not be
>> buildable if C# support is unavailable.
> Well, that should be built in on OSX, or not?
well, on
Hi John,
when I was going once more through your post from mid-March I noticed that you
are using kate extensively.
On 12 Mar 2014, at 19:44 , John Layt wrote:
> I use Kate extensively on Mac, and Dolphin when Finder is too
> brain-dead.
Don’t you see the trouble described in ticket [1] on you
Hi Ben,
thanks very much for your so informative reply!
On 13 Apr 2014, at 12:28 , Ben Cooksley wrote:
> Not exactly, however the infrastructure we have for our Linux builds
> should be nearly completely portable to OSX without too much trouble
> (in theory at least - i've never done any compila
Hi Ben,
On 15 Mar 2014, at 12:07 , Ben Cooksley wrote:
> We'll await the results of the Macports collaboration thread before
> continuing further.
in the meantime we have proceeded somewhat regarding our efforts to collect
some information about current problems of KDE software on MacPorts.
For
On 10 Apr 2014, at 00:40 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> i assume, ideally the api would just abstract spotlight on osx?
> would require someone developing an osx backend.
Yes, Thomas, that would be ideal.
Since I am not an OSX developer I have no clue as to how open Apple’s API’s
regarding Spotlight
On 10 Apr 2014, at 00:18 , Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> Again not Baloo guy here, but as far as I know you can't disable "Baloo",
> what
> Vishesh told you is how to disable it's file indexer (baloofile), but if you
> use KMail it(akonadi_baloo_indexer) will still index your emails into the
> Ba
Hi again,
On 09 Apr 2014, at 23:53 , Frank Reininghaus wrote:
> I think that there are many KDE apps which do not require Baloo at all.
I could imagine that too.
> I'm not sure if there is a full list somewhere, but you can
> always build KDE modules and watch for any Baloo-related output from
>
Hi Albert,
On 09 Apr 2014, at 22:28 , Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> No, it is not, if we had to do user support in this list it would get crowded
I got it.
> So you are a packager, ok, the it's not user support and I guess it is kind
> on
> topic. If you had given all the information on the begi
Hi Frank,
thanks again for your constructive feedback! :)
On 09 Apr 2014, at 22:24 , Frank Reininghaus wrote:
> yes, but you might not be able to build and/or use all KDE
> applications correctly. kdelibs itself does not depend on Baloo at
> all.
okay, good to know that kdelibs itself doesn’t ne
Hi Albert,
On 09 Apr 2014, at 22:01 , Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> How is this a development question? Remember this is kde-devel, not a support
> forum.
it is not?
> If you want to check if that is possible. Try it out yourself.
I am not a KDE developer, just a port maintainer, and I thought I A
Hi Vishesh,
On 08 Apr 2014, at 10:36 , Vishesh Handa wrote:
>> will it be possible to run KDE without baloo enabled?
> Yes. You can go to System Settings -> Desktop Search -> Exclude Folders, and
> add your $HOME directory over there.
>
> Otherwise you can also edit the baloofilerc file and add
Hi devs,
will it be possible to run KDE without baloo enabled?
If so, which switches would have to be turned to do so during configuring
kdelibs and/or other KDE apps?
Greets,
Marko
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe <<
Hi Ian,
On 02 Apr 2014, at 02:16 , Ian Wadham wrote:
>> The same holds for Konqueror, which answers your question, Ian! :-)
>
> Yeah, but where/how (in the code or the build instructions) does it get that
> icon?
I don’t know where in the code it happens, I only saw that it accessed the fils
u
On 31 Mar 2014, at 22:41 , mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> So, obviously the test program fiddles with the ICNS file at startup and
> restores it when shutting down…
> What’s going on there and what can go wrong?
So, I figure now that the problem is actually due to the fact that the icon at
runtime g
Icon-wise there is progress on my end. I peeked into kmines’ sources (since it does show its icon properly on MacOSX and has very short source code) ...… and it turned out that it is important in which order the CMake directives kde4_add_app_icon() and kde4_add_executable() are appearing in CMakeLi
I would really fancy a minimal demo app which shows the mechanics of the app
icon…
I have played a little more with my own test case
https://bitbucket.org/mkae/kde-tests/commits/bab1c1e8c5c3ba7ddbd1a9d1cf0c948358e40038?at=default
but it is leading nowhere. :-(
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailm
I have put the code including some PNGs for testing on
https://bitbucket.org/mkae/kde-tests/src/7ca075e847a2c0ba1d5e7a97f1a5a60a298fe0f9/AboutBoxCrash/?at=default
This app does neither create the ICNS nor sets up the required Resources folder
in Contents:
—
./tutorial2.app
./tutorial2.a
Thanks Thomas,
for your valuable hints! :-)
On 23 Mar 2014, at 12:19 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> Do you get a dialog for
>kcmshell4 componentchooser
OK, I located the executable eventually:
—
$ /Applications/MacPorts/KDE4/kcmshell4.app/Contents/MacOS/kcmshell4
componentchooser
kcmshell(3530)
On 23 Mar 2014, at 12:19 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> kioclient exec 'http://www.kde.org/'
$ kioclient exec 'http://www.kde.org/'
kioclient(2672)/kdecore (KSycoca) KSycocaPrivate::openDatabase: Trying to open
ksycoca from "/private/var/tmp/kdecache-marko/ksycoca4"
kioclient(2672)/kio (Scheduler) KI
On 23 Mar 2014, at 12:09 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> kdevelop/app/CMakeLists.txt *does* have
> kde4_add_app_icon(kdevelop_bin_SRCS
> "${CMAKE_CURRENT_SOURCE_DIR}/../pics/hi*-app-kdevelop.png”)
Yep, thanks for pointing that out. I forgot option ‘-i’ in my find command call.
:-(
> As you probably fi
On 23 Mar 2014, at 12:09 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> kdevelop/app/CMakeLists.txt *does* have
> kde4_add_app_icon(kdevelop_bin_SRCS
> "${CMAKE_CURRENT_SOURCE_DIR}/../pics/hi*-app-kdevelop.png”)
Yep, thanks for pointing that out. I forgot option ‘-i’ in my find command call.
:-(
> As you probably fi
On 23 Mar 2014, at 09:42 , mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> KDevelop is the only one missing the 128x128 icon, which seems to be the
> reason for displaying the generic icon in dock if the app is not started.
Simply giving KDevelop the missing icon is not yet enough to make it work in
the dock and find
On 23 Mar 2014, at 08:56 , mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> I haven’t crosschecked with other apps from my long list, but I guess that
> explains it.
I have found that the ports with an app icon on OSX actually do have an ICNS
file installed:
—
$ find /Applications/MacPorts/KDE4 -name "*.icns"
/Applic
This patch file does NOT yet achieve the expected up to now:
—
--- pics/CMakeLists.txt 2014-03-23 09:03:11.0 +0100
+++ pics/CMakeLists.txt.new 2014-03-23 09:12:01.0 +0100
@@ -7,3 +7,6 @@
### install files ###
kde4_install_icons(${ICON_INSTALL_DIR})
+
+#QT
And now I see that there is also this line in KMM’s cmake file:
QT4_ADD_DBUS_ADAPTOR(kmymoney_SRCS org.kde.kmymoney.xml kmymoney.h
KMyMoneyApp)
which is most certainly also important for something… ;-)
How would that have to be adapted to e.g. KDevelop?
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mai
Hi Thomas,
I indeed can’t find the needed statement in any CMakeLists.txt file in
KDevelop’s sources:
—
$ find . -name CMakeLists.txt -exec grep -l KDE4_ADD_APP_ICON {} \;
$
—
I haven’t crosschecked with other apps from my long list, but I guess that
explains it.
Thanks again,
Marko
>> Visit
On 22 Mar 2014, at 23:41 , Ian Wadham wrote:
> That is a normal message. It just tells you where KDE libs is looking for the
> SyCoCa.
OK. Good to know.
> I see you are running your tutorial2 as if it was a UNIX or Linux app, i.e. by
> direct execution of the executable file which the compile/bu
On 22 Mar 2014, at 22:28 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> Define "nothing" - and what would you have expected?
> Do you return to the prompt or would you expect a window to show up?
> A link to the tutorial code would be helpful (to know what it's supposed to
> do)
It’s just a very basic app and I forg
On 22 Mar 2014, at 20:40 , Thomas Baumgart wrote:
> I found the following in KMyMoneys kmymoney/CMakeLists.txt
> KDE4_ADD_APP_ICON( kmymoney_SRCS hi*-app-kmymoney.png )
OK, Thomas, I’ll check whether I can find something like that for the other
ports in question or not (and if not will file cor
[ I am cross-posting this also to KMyMoney’s and KDevelop’s mailing lists,
because I hope for some synergy (see the example at the bottom of this post). ]
Hi devs,
I know, the following might not be a very pressing one, but it is a
long-standing issue on MacPorts [1]
Many KDE applications ar
Hi,
I just tried to start KDE's bug reporter from a little tutorial application on
MacOSX, but I got this spat out at the console:
—
$ tutorial2.app/Contents/MacOS/tutorial2
tutorial2(1006)/kdecore (KSycoca) KSycocaPrivate::openDatabase: Trying to open
ksycoca from "/private/var/tmp/kdecache-ma
On 19 Mar 2014, at 22:30 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> That the libxml2 bug is not related to the bug #261509 backtrace (doesn't
> change anything since i anticipated that for social reasons ;-)
Ah, ok, so that supports the notion that it was just an accidental coincidence.
So, I am afraid we might
On 19 Mar 2014, at 21:50 , Luigi Toscano wrote:
> The crash described in that stack trace happens in a part of code which is
> executed *before* initializing livxml.
OK, and what do we learn from that?
Greets,
Marko
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On 19 Mar 2014, at 06:29 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> There seems a known issue reg. multithreaded libxml2 [1], but since Marko was
> the reporter, i simply ruled it out being the remaining one.
I doubt it was a libxml2 issue, since the corresponding poster wrote
—
Hi on windows we had a similar cr
Hi Thomas,
thanks for that clarification with code! :-)
OK, now I see what you mean.
I still wonder how and where you found this "str == NULL” issue…
I must have seen some other stack trace then. Which one are you referring to,
actually?
Greets,
Marko (who is now eventually truly off for tonig
So, I got all *.docbook files coming with kdelibs4 and copied them into a test
directory and wrote a bash script which calls meinproc4 for every of those
files.
Of course there are now tons of warning because I obviously don’t have some
needed files in certain directories which meinproc4 needs…
On 18 Mar 2014, at 23:56 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> is NULL, thus try with an initial
>
> if (str == NULL)
> return QString();
I didn’t grasp this quickly where I should insert that code, to tell you the
truth. ;-)
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to unsubscribe <
Luigi, before I am off for tonight I verified that I can start meinproc4 with
lldb. Works.
All I’d need now would be big and complex files to work on.
Without doing any building of any port I’d want to just steal some XML/XSL
source files perhaps from KDELIBS and let meinproc4 work on them in a
On 18 Mar 2014, at 23:15 , Luigi Toscano wrote:
> Ok: I've seen the other message, but then I would start from this and make
> sure that the stacktrace is the correct one.
Hmm…
> Could you (or any other Mac user/developer) please try to
> - recompile kdelibs with debug symbols
Right now I am not
As shown in [1] I’ve got a working native KDE tutorial application started.
So, now one could add whatever code you think is needed to test the issue
observed with meinproc4.
[1] http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kdevelop/2014-March/018258.html
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-deve
Ages ago I was hunting a but in KDE’s about dialog and had set up a Mercurial
repo for it on BitBucket [1].
One could use that location for the minor app which you’re suggesting.
[1] https://bitbucket.org/mkae/kde-tests
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Hi Luigi,
On 18 Mar 2014, at 14:33 , Luigi Toscano wrote:
> I wonder why it happens only here and not in other applications; the crash is
> in a innocent call to KGlobal. Do you know about similar crashes/stacktraces
> in other applications?
I don’t know whether this stack trace is representat
On 18 Mar 2014, at 00:17 , Luigi Toscano wrote:
> I'm pretty sure meinproc4 does not depend on anything tex-related.
Of course it does not.
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Hi Ian,
On 17 Mar 2014, at 01:20 , Ian Wadham wrote:
> Alexander Dymo (adymo) is one of two former KDE developers now working on
> Homebrew.
> And he was one of the original developers of KDevelop. I remember him from
> back then.
> Do you fancy some "bridge building", Marko?
I’ll will contac
Hi Aleix,
On 17 Mar 2014, at 00:54 , Aleix Pol wrote:
> First of all, KDevelop mailing lists are not dead, we did change our mailing
> list to kde.org infrastructure, you might have looked at the wrong place [1].
Oh, I see now.
I had realised that they had been moved a while ago. But when check
On 16 Mar 2014, at 22:02 , mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> What I did was that I set up a project via “Project/New From
> Template…/Project Type/Graphical”.
Turns out I was creating a template for a QML application.
I just tried a "Graphical C++ KDE” with the same sad result.
But when I tried
Hi devs,
after having installed kdesdk4 successfully MacPorts needed only about 30s to
install the residual handful of ports required by KDevelop.
Now there is KDevelop 1.6.0 up and running. :)
Well, before going further with questions I wonder whether I should address
them to KDevelop
On 16 Mar 2014, at 20:59 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> Yes, but those are build dependencies, right?
Yep.
> The binary packages are not affected by this, are they?
No.
It’s only a nuisance for those who need/want to build from scratch.
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-devel#unsub to
On 16 Mar 2014, at 20:34 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> A dependency in two versions of GTK?
> For a non-GUI program?
I even had a case with a port (don’t remember which one though) where actually
LaTeX was required just because there was some documentation stuff to be
converted from tex to pdf… Imag
On 16 Mar 2014, at 20:34 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> A dependency in two versions of GTK?
> For a non-GUI program?
> Oh dear.
Yup.
:-(
> Wouldn't it make more sense to make the native variants the default?
Well, I would think so, but it’s historically grown, so the maintainers tried
their best to g
Below another example of kdelibs4’s dependencies, which shows that soprano is
the port requiring all the X11.
Ian already mentioned libsdl, but also virtuoso and gtk[23]… (I’ve stripped all
non-X11 port from that tree.)
But, things get more complex when you start looking at other ports.
There i
Hi Luigi,
On 16 Mar 2014, at 14:14 , Luigi Toscano wrote:
> It would be interesting to know what are those issues. All the dependencies
> for those packages are regularly packaged in many Linux distributions where
> the licenses have been properly checked.
OK, with this
—
$ bash mp-distributable
Hi Kevin,
>> Hmm, it does apply also to KDE software, since it may use a library which
>> isn’t permitting binary-only distribution.
> I find this hard to believe. That would mean this is a KDE application that
> is
> not available on Linux distributions.
hmmm, well, I remember there was some d
Hi Kevin,
On 16 Mar 2014, at 11:07 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> I didn't mean to imply or suggest that the design was flawed or anything like
> that.
ok.
> Ian wrote something about build dependencies and building which kind of
> didn't go
> well with my mental model of Mac users.
I see.
> I
Hi folks,
for testing I have just tried to install MacPorts’ port kdesdk4 (which includes
dolphin) and it worked like a charm, except a minor issue which turned out to
be not a dolphin-one [1].
All dependent ports got installed w/o problems on Mac OS X 10.9.2 within just a
very few minutes (du
Hi folks,
although it’s not KDE, but “only” pure Qt, still I thought it is worth
mentioning:
Thanks to support by its developer I was able to bring AT-Transfers [1]
seamlessly via MacPorts to MacOSX [2] with only a few tweaks to make the
Qt-Creator project build no problem.
Th
Hi Frank,
On 15 Mar 2014, at 17:30 , Frank Reininghaus wrote:
> I apologize for making this statement then. It was done in response to
:)
Accepted.
> a message which described at least some parts of KDE on Mac as
> severely broken, said that Mac users use 4-letter words when talking
I wasn’t awa
Hi Kevin,
On 14 Mar 2014, at 09:46 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> I hadn't imagined that a packaging effort for OSX would do that as well. My
> assmption was that especially on OSX one wouldn't want end users to have to
> deal with that.
>
> My obviously uneducated guess would have been that it woul
On 15 Mar 2014, at 13:35 , Thomas Lübking wrote:
> On Samstag, 15. März 2014 12:07:46 CEST, René JV Bertin wrote:
>> and who knows maybe even support KWin for those of us using X11 apps ...
> What's your concern here?
> X11 on OSX should be provided by XQuartz which should provide native OSX
> ti
On 12 Mar 2014, at 19:44 , John Layt wrote:
> But what we need most right now is a Mac experienced sysadmin to take
> on setting up and maintaining the Mac infrastructure, then a
> fundraiser to get the hardware. And for people to start talking to
> each other on kde-mac.
Well, one could also con
Hi Kevin,
On 12 Mar 2014, at 14:46 , Kevin Krammer wrote:
> Anyway, my point was that X11 should not be a dependency on a non-X11
> platform, just like it is not on Windows.
Well, I always tried to keep all X11 stuff away from the KDE apps I installed.
But unfortunately
even KMyMoney and kden
On 11 Mar 2014, at 04:05 , Ian Wadham wrote:
> I am seriously interested in this problem of running KDE apps
> on Apple Mac OS X and would like to do something to solve it,
> but I am going to need help and advice on the internals of
> KDE --- or an up-to-date set of design and architecture
> doc
Hi Ian,
thanks for your initiative!!!
I am not a software engineer - but just a Linux/MacOSX hobby-coder - and since
4 years I am trying to keep KMyMoney (KMM) alive on MacOSX via MacPorts during
my spare time [0]. That’s how the two of us initially got to know each other!
:-)
— INSET ——
Hi devs,
I keep having trouble trying to build the KDE application KMyMoney4 without
documentation.
With ccmake I can see that all settings with relevance to documentation issues
are set to off:
---
KDE4_ENABLE_HTMLHANDBOOK OFF
On Jan 26, 2013, at 2:38 PM, Thomas Baumgart wrote:
> p.s. I am pretty sure you wanted to send this to kmymoney-devel instead of
> kde-devel, right? Hence I am switching lists here
Sorry, wrong list, yes!
:-/
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BTW, is it a bug or a feature that the editor doesn't allow to edit overdue
payments of schedules?
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> On Jan 6, 2013, at 11:45 PM, mk-li...@email.de wrote:
>> :info:build Undefined symbols:
>> :info:build "GlobalShortcutsRegistry::keyPressed(int)", referenced from:
>> :info:build KGlobalAccelImpl::keyPressed(int)in kglobalaccel_mac.o
>> :info:build ld: symbol(s) not found
>
> Thanks
On Jan 6, 2013, at 11:45 PM, mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> :info:build Undefined symbols:
> :info:build "GlobalShortcutsRegistry::keyPressed(int)", referenced from:
> :info:build KGlobalAccelImpl::keyPressed(int)in kglobalaccel_mac.o
> :info:build ld: symbol(s) not found
Thanks to Nicos I
While trying to upgrade my KDE from 4.9.3 to 4.9.5 installed through MacPorts
all went smoothly for
kdelibs4
kactivities
nepomuk-core
kdepimlibs4
oxygen-icons
redland
but for kde4-runtime I finally ran into an undefined symbol:
:info:build cd
/opt/macports-test/var/macports/build/_Users_marko
On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> It is stored in the KDE Git repository kde-build-metadata, which you
> can get from git://anongit.kde.org/kde-build-metadata
> The file "dependency-data" is located in that repository.
Thanks very much!
That's helpful.
Marko
>> Visit http://mail.kd
On Nov 1, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> Per kde-build-metadata:dependency-data:
Where exactly do I find this data?
> kde/kde-runtime: kdesupport/strigi/libstreams[master]
> kde/kde-runtime: kde/kdelibs/kactivities
> kde/kde-runtime: kdesupport/attica[master]
> kde/kde-runtime: kde/kdepim
I was wondering whether kdepimlibs4 is a necessary dependency of kde4-runtime...
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I got a compilation error in kactivities-4.9.2/service/main.cpp:79:
---
static void initSignalCatching() {
#ifndef Q_OS_WIN32 // krazy:skip
struct sigaction action;
::sigemptyset(&action.sa_mask); // << this
is line 79 where compiling fails
I still can't believe that my last silly try succeeded just now with these
changes to the configuration:
configure.args-append \
-DNEPOMUK_LIBRARIES:FILEPATH=/opt/macports-test/lib/libnepomuk.dylib \
-DNEPOMUK_QUERY_LIBRARIES:FILEPATH=/opt/macports-te
Hi devs,
I was trying to build kdepimlibs 4.9.2 on MacOSX 10.6.8...
While it was possible to install kdelibs4 almost without trouble (with some
fixes concerning missing Nepomuk header files) I FAILED with kdepimlibs.
All was built fine, but linking gives trouble.
Nepomuk libs are installed and
On Oct 21, 2012, at 12:43 AM, mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> Looks like Qt needs to be installed including its MySQL drivers. I guess
> that's something to be checked first…
Sorry for the nose. Problem solved. After installing the MySQL-plugins for Qt
all worked fine.
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/m
On Oct 21, 2012, at 12:37 AM, mk-li...@email.de wrote:
> QSqlDatabase: QMYSQL driver not loaded
> QSqlDatabase: available drivers: QSQLITE
Looks like Qt needs to be installed including its MySQL drivers. I guess that's
something to be checked first...
>> Visit http://mail.kde.org/mailman/listi
Hi devs,
when trying to start akonadi on a KDE4-installation via MacPorts on MacOSX one
gets these errors:
---
$ /opt/macports-test/bin/akonadictl start
Starting Akonadi Server...
done.
Connecting to deprecated signal
QDBusConnectionInterface::serviceOwnerChanged(QString,QString,QString)
sear
> Technically it needs to be run if new .desktop files are installed.
Is the assumption correct that the run would have to be carried out by the user
and not by root?
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