On 23.09.2024 at 23:21, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] wrote:
> Among the installed PECL extensions are igbinary, imagick, mongodb,
> msgpack, and oauth (which I note lists the version as "2.0.8dev").
Well, oauth hadn't had a release for four years, so that probably has
been a last resort to still provide
On Mon, Sep 23, 2024, at 1:14 AM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> I absolutely love that Larry called the question if it were technically
> possible. Maybe Larry will read this and can answer the question —
> since he was heavily involved with Drupal — "Would Drupal be willing to
> require or at least
On 23/09/2024 07:14, Mike Schinkel wrote:
I think there's an impression that somehow by proposing that "we" add
some complex functionality "to the language", it will suddenly
attract developers and become stable and universally adopted; but
it's really the other way around: once there's a matur
On 23/09/2024 18:07, Adam Zielinski wrote:
If PHP had WASM support,
WordPress could ship curl.wasm as a fallback and focus on the product
more than on the plumbing.
As has been pointed out a couple of times already, this particular use
case really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
- The chances
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Mike. I hope everyone had a nice weekend.
> However, my guess is that Automattic (spelled correctly) is not likely to do
> that given how dismissive PHP Internals and by extension the PHP Foundation
> has been regarding the needs of WordPress users for as lo
On Mon, Sep 23, 2024 at 8:14=E2=80=AFAM Mike Schinkel =
wrote:
> > At which point, some managed hosting servers might be more willing to i=
nstall it. Not the ones who don't even install ext/curl, those are never go=
ing to benefit from this.
> There are very few (if any) that won't install curl a
On 23.09.2024 at 08:14, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> However, my guess is that Automattic (spelled correctly) is not likely
> to do that given how dismissive PHP Internals and by extension the PHP
> Foundation has been regarding the needs of WordPress users for as long
> as you Arvids have been doing PH
> On Sep 20, 2024, at 3:56 AM, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
> I want to chip in here, since reading the thread lead me into a state of
> cognitive dissonance.
> I've been in PHP world for a long time, about 3 years shy of how old
> Wordpress is. When I'm reading "shared hosting" and "WASM" and knowing
On Sat, Sep 21, 2024, 3:41 AM Dennis Snell
wrote:
>
> On Sep 20, 2024, at 1:21 PM, Jakub Zelenka wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 6:32 PM Dennis Snell
> wrote:
>
>>
>> My goal in sharing here is to help better represent my own perspective of
>> WordPress’ needs based on what I’ve seen
On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 11:20 PM Mike Schinkel wrote:
> > On Sep 19, 2024, at 12:00 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP] <
> imsop@rwec.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, at 20:33, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> >> Yeah. That was the original goal.
> >>
> >> But to say WASM's domain is limited to browse
On 20 September 2024 20:27:34 BST, Larry Garfield
wrote:
>Logistical question, for those with more stdlib expertise: Since we have other
>extensions in php-src that only work if you install some other library as well
>(eg, curl), which distros pretty much take care of for us, would a small
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 9:36 PM Dennis Snell
wrote:
>
> On Sep 20, 2024, at 1:21 PM, Jakub Zelenka wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 6:32 PM Dennis Snell
> wrote:
>
>>
>> My goal in sharing here is to help better represent my own perspective of
>> WordPress’ needs based on what I’
> On Sep 20, 2024, at 1:21 PM, Jakub Zelenka wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 6:32 PM Dennis Snell > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> My goal in sharing here is to help better represent my own perspective of
>> WordPress’ needs based on what I’ve seen. It’s long been on my list to
>> pr
Hi,
On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 6:32 PM Dennis Snell
wrote:
>
> My goal in sharing here is to help better represent my own perspective of
> WordPress’ needs based on what I’ve seen. It’s long been on my list to
> propose a WASM RFC, but because I personally haven’t had the priority
> available to ge
> FWIW, I feel that an embedded Wasm bridge, with a good API, would be an
> excellent addition and way more useful than the crappy experience of FFI.
:confused_face:
> Logistical question, for those with more stdlib expertise: Since we have
> other extensions in php-src that only work if you in
On Fri, Sep 20, 2024, at 12:28 PM, Dennis Snell wrote:
> I’m not sure why you’re singling out Automattic, since nobody from
> Automattic started this thread or requested other people provide
> unfunded volunteer work, or why you’re expecting a single corporate
> entity to fully fund long-term p
> On Sep 20, 2024, at 12:56 AM, Arvids Godjuks wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Sept 2024 at 09:17, Dennis Snell > wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Hammed, thank you for taking the time to read through this and share your
>> thoughts.
>>
>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Hammed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Hope
Personally, for me, wasm becomes very interesting when we have dedicated CPU
architectures that handle the wasm op codes natively in server farms.
Otherwise, wasm is nice for mix-and-match language use or cleaning up systems
with poor memory handling but not super-critical. Just my own personal
On 20 September 2024 06:20:46 BST, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> Embedding it into other languages is a different usage again. It's certainly
>> something that is being explored, e.g. by Extism, and that seems like a good
>> project for anyone interested here to participate in, e.g. to help design
On Fri, 20 Sept 2024 at 09:17, Dennis Snell
wrote:
> Hi Hammed, thank you for taking the time to read through this and share
> your thoughts.
>
> snip
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> Hammed
>
>
> Hope you have a nice weekend. Cheers.
>
Hello everyone,
I want to chip in here, since reading the thread lead me
Hi Hammed, thank you for taking the time to read through this and share your
thoughts.
> On Sep 19, 2024, at 1:41 PM, Hammed Ajao wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:30 PM Dennis Snell > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 17, 2024, at 2:03 PM, Rob Landers wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> On Sep 19, 2024, at 12:00 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, at 20:33, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> Yeah. That was the original goal.
>>
>> But to say WASM's domain is limited to browsers is not valid any longer:
>> [...]
>
> While it's definitely interesting seeing what
On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 8:30 PM Dennis Snell
wrote:
>
> On Sep 17, 2024, at 2:03 PM, Rob Landers wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, at 14:57, Adam Zielinski wrote:
>
> > To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
> >
> > 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
>
On Wed, Sep 18, 2024, 1:33 p.m. Mike Schinkel wrote:
> > On Sep 18, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Hammed Ajao wrote:
> > Yes and no. The primary goal of WebAssembly is to support
> high-performance applications on web pages. The premise is simple:
> JavaScript is the only language natively supported by brow
On Wed, 18 Sep 2024, at 20:33, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> Yeah. That was the original goal.
>
> But to say WASM's domain is limited to browsers is not valid any longer:
> [...]
While it's definitely interesting seeing what uses it's being put to beyond the
browser, the majority of those articles are
> On Sep 18, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Hammed Ajao wrote:
> Yes and no. The primary goal of WebAssembly is to support high-performance
> applications on web pages. The premise is simple: JavaScript is the only
> language natively supported by browsers, but developers want to use various
> other languag
On Wed, Sep 18, 2024, 5:16 a.m. Adam Zielinski <
adam.zielin...@automattic.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 18, 2024 at 2:39 AM Hammed Ajao wrote:
>
> > Running Wasm and PHP virtual machines together presents several
> significant challenges and potential issues:
> > • Memory Management and Isolation: E
On Wed, Sep 18, 2024 at 2:39 AM Hammed Ajao wrote:
> Running Wasm and PHP virtual machines together presents several significant
> challenges and potential issues:
> • Memory Management and Isolation: Each VM has its own memory model and
> garbage collection strategy. Data passing between VMs o
On Tue, 17 Sep 2024, at 22:03, Rob Landers wrote:
> It seems like you have a use for it though, and I’m reasonably certain you
> could get it working over ffi in a few weeks; yet you mention hosts not even
> having the curl extension installed, so I doubt that even if wasm came to be,
> it would
On Tue, Sep 17, 2024 at 9:17 PM Mike Schinkel wrote:
>
> On Sep 17, 2024, at 8:57 AM, Adam Zielinski
> wrote:
>
> > To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
> >
> > 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
> > shared hosts for things that are just not possible in
> On Sep 17, 2024, at 2:03 PM, Rob Landers wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, at 14:57, Adam Zielinski wrote:
>
>>> To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
>>
>>> shared hosts for things that a
On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 11:20 PM Mike Schinkel wrote:
> On Sep 11, 2024, at 4:43 PM, Hammed Ajao wrote:
>
> Using WebAssembly (Wasm) for PHP doesn't make much sense. PHP already runs
> on its own virtual machine server-side, so adding another VM (Wasm) would
> just introduce unnecessary complexi
On Tue, Sep 17, 2024, at 14:57, Adam Zielinski wrote:
> > To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
> >
> > 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
> > shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as described a
> > few paragraphs prior, and where we c
> On Sep 17, 2024, at 8:57 AM, Adam Zielinski
> wrote:
>
> > To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
> >
> > 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
> > shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as described a
> > few paragraphs prior, and where
> To summarize, I think PHP would benefit from:
>
> 1. Adding WASM for simple low-level extensibility that could run on
> shared hosts for things that are just not possible in PHP as described a
> few paragraphs prior, and where we could enhance functionality over time,
>
> 2. Constantly improving
> On Sep 11, 2024, at 4:43 PM, Hammed Ajao wrote:
>
> Using WebAssembly (Wasm) for PHP doesn't make much sense. PHP already runs on
> its own virtual machine server-side, so adding another VM (Wasm) would just
> introduce unnecessary complexity and overhead.
Sorry, but I am going to have to c
On 11.09.2024 at 22:43, Hammed Ajao wrote:
> Your point about operator overloading doesn't seem valid either. Consider
> the following:
>
> ```php
> class X {
> public function plus(X $that) {}
> public function equals(X $that) {}
> }
> ```
>
> In this case, `plus` could represent any beha
> On Sep 11, 2024, at 4:55 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
> wrote:
> On 11 September 2024 20:12:53 BST, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>>> It also risks conflicting with a future language feature that overlaps, as
>>> happened with all native functions marked as accepting string automatically
>>> coercing nu
On 11 September 2024 20:12:53 BST, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> It also risks conflicting with a future language feature that overlaps, as
>> happened with all native functions marked as accepting string automatically
>> coercing nulls, but all userland ones rejecting it. Deprecating that
>> diff
On Wed, Sep 11, 2024 at 1:13 PM Mike Schinkel wrote:
> Hi Rowan,
>
> > On Sep 11, 2024, at 2:55 AM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
> wrote:
> > Perhaps you're unaware that classes in core already can, and do, provide
> operator overloading. GMP is the "poster child" for it, overloading a bunch
> of mathe
Hi Rowan,
> On Sep 11, 2024, at 2:55 AM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
> wrote:
> Perhaps you're unaware that classes in core already can, and do, provide
> operator overloading. GMP is the "poster child" for it, overloading a bunch
> of mathematical operators, but the mechanism it uses to do so is re
On 11 September 2024 03:57:23 BST, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>If you've gotten this far and we are still in agreement then I was looking for
>a way to make it easier to add operator overloading for classes to be added to
>core. So your comment "to reduce the difference between what can be done in
Hi Rowan,
This message is in reply to https://externals.io/message/125455#125496 from the
thread "bikeshed: Typed Aliases"
> On Sep 10, 2024, at 5:35 PM, Rowan Tommins [IMSoP]
> wrote:
> On 10 September 2024 19:32:19 BST, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>> BTW, why has nobody ever mentioned Zephir on th
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