Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 05/02/13 21:16, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > new keywords is an interesting discussion to have -- it's actually the > first real thing to discuss as far as I can see. For example that is > something that version strings would tremendously help. You do not > need to maintain the whole lot of behaviors

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Sent from my iPhone On 5 Feb, 2013, at 9:20 PM, Martin Keckeis wrote: >> http://w3techs.com/**technologies/history_details/**pl-php/5use >> of PHP5.1 is slowing faster than 5.4 use is growing. > > > This is wrong. > At May 2012: > PH

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/05/2013 12:16 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: >> Yup, so please test it against 5.5 now. Have you done so? It is rather >> trivial to do. Grab it from git or there is a tarball at http://qa.php.net > >>> Let me describe my world. I am working on an open source package. So >>> does another 1000 or

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 9:16 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Care to explain how am I supposed to test all that against 5.5? Easy, download, install, test locally. > Obviously you'd need every project owner doing this but they won't > because their hosts are not even on 5.4 so why would they even th

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> Yup, so please test it against 5.5 now. Have you done so? It is rather > trivial to do. Grab it from git or there is a tarball at http://qa.php.net >> Let me describe my world. I am working on an open source package. So >> does another 1000 or so developers. And another 10 000 adds modules >> (o

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

hi, On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > It is totally on topic! no, really not. > :( THEY are not programmers ... But you are. Evolution of the platform as a whole is part of the support, if desired and necessary. > My current roadmap is based on PHP5.4 servers with nothing

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > Pierre Joye wrote: >> >> If you do commercial support for customers and do not control the >> environment and/or use shared hosting, then something is totally wrong >> in your business model. It is also really off topic, in this mailing >> list

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Pierre Joye wrote: If you do commercial support for customers and do not control the environment and/or use shared hosting, then something is totally wrong in your business model. It is also really off topic, in this mailing list or in this discussion. It is totally on topic! The REASON I have

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Lester Caine wrote: > hakre wrote: >>> >>> In reality we have to make choices where we DO spend time. There is still >>> a mile >>> >of code out there being used live which is running perfectly on the >>> > PHP5.2 >>> >infrastructure. That needs testing and reworkin

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Martin Keckeis wrote: http://w3techs.com/__technologies/history_details/__pl-php/5 use of PHP5.1 is slowing faster than 5.4 use is growing. This is wrong. At May 2012: PHP 5.1 starts with 4.9% PHP 5.4 start with 0.1 % In F

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> http://w3techs.com/**technologies/history_details/**pl-php/5use > of PHP5.1 is slowing faster than 5.4 use is growing. This is wrong. At May 2012: PHP 5.1 starts with 4.9% PHP 5.4 start with 0.1 % In Februar 2013: PHP 5.1 has now 3.2%

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

- Ursprüngliche Message - > Von: Lester Caine > An: "internals@lists.php.net" > CC: > Gesendet: 13:42 Dienstag, 5.Februar 2013 > Betreff: Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language > versioning > > hakre wrote: >>>

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> This is a circular discussion and I don't see how it could end. > I do. Let's put up an RFC for it. That is one of the reasons we established that process, isn't it? So that ideas like this don't just end up in infinite discussions that go nowhere? Karoly, are you familiar with our RFC proce

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

hakre wrote: In reality we have to make choices where we DO spend time. There is still a mile >of code out there being used live which is running perfectly on the PHP5.2 >infrastructure. That needs testing and reworking on PHP5.3 and then PHP5.4 >before we get around to 5.5. Why do you change th

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

- Ursprüngliche Message - > Von: Lester Caine > An: "internals@lists.php.net" > CC: > Gesendet: 9:14 Dienstag, 5.Februar 2013 > Betreff: Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language > versioning > > Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: >

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 05.02.2013 09:14, schrieb Lester Caine: > f code out there being used live which is running perfectly on the > PHP5.2 infrastructure. That needs testing and reworking on PHP5.3 > and then PHP5.4 before we get around to 5.5. > > This is perhaps the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

hi Karoly, On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 7:35 AM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > OK, let's try this again. > > Maybe language versioning is out. That's sad, but this thread brought > to light a much more important problem I would like to try to address. > > I have long felt the PHP team is living in another wo

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: It would make everyone's life so much easier if all the Drupal 8 code >that is being written and tested with 5.4 would just work 5.5 without >*any* problem. Yup, so please test it against 5.5 now. Have you done so? It is rather trivial to do. Grab it from git or there is a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

I don't see the problem for a software with this minor BC breaks from 5.3 to 5.5. The biggest change ever happened with namespaces and so in in 5.3 should already be done. If you have to change some parts, this is done in a few hours/days, with search and replace and a little bit handwork. And for

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/04/2013 10:35 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > OK, let's try this again. > > Maybe language versioning is out. That's sad, but this thread brought > to light a much more important problem I would like to try to address. > > I have long felt the PHP team is living in another world I do. > > Let

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

OK, let's try this again. Maybe language versioning is out. That's sad, but this thread brought to light a much more important problem I would like to try to address. I have long felt the PHP team is living in another world I do. Let me describe my world. I am working on an open source package.

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Am 04.02.2013 08:14, schrieb Jan Ehrhardt: Thomas Bley in php.internals (Mon, 4 Feb 2013 02:06:02 +0100): If I see it correctly, none of Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, CentOS, Fedora currently offer more than one version of PHP. Yes. Even SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 11 SP 2 which ships both legacy

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Thomas Bley in php.internals (Mon, 4 Feb 2013 02:06:02 +0100): >If I see it correctly, none of Debian, Ubuntu, openSUSE, CentOS, >Fedora currently offer more than one version of PHP. Directadmin does, I am using it on CentOS. http://forum.directadmin.com/showthread.php?t=44743 Jan -- PHP Intern

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/02/13 23:56, Florian Anderiasch wrote: > On 03.02.2013 23:49, Thomas Bley wrote: >> Using Debian/Ubuntu, I have "python2.6", "python2.7" and >> "python3" packages, but only one version of "php5-fpm". Maybe it >> would be better to have "php5.3-fp

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 11:56 PM, Florian Anderiasch wrote: > On 03.02.2013 23:49, Thomas Bley wrote: >> Using Debian/Ubuntu, I have "python2.6", "python2.7" and "python3" >> packages, but only one version of "php5-fpm". >> Maybe it would be better to have "php5.3-fpm" and "php5.4-fpm", using >> /e

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 1:48 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > > We do not consider a change [...] a BC break > > Let me help: backwards compatibility means a host can upgrade a > package without inducing a lot of support tickets. > > Best, > > Karoly Negyesi > > -- > PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Develop

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 03.02.2013 23:49, Thomas Bley wrote: > Using Debian/Ubuntu, I have "python2.6", "python2.7" and "python3" > packages, but only one version of "php5-fpm". > Maybe it would be better to have "php5.3-fpm" and "php5.4-fpm", using > /etc/php5.3 and /etc/php5.4 ? > Esp. for Travis-CI it would be much

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 02:49 PM, Thomas Bley wrote: > On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Nikita Popov wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening >> accompanied by the version it was written for, it was tested with a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Nikita Popov wrote: > On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening > accompanied by the version it was written for, it was tested with and then >> the engine could switch to a compatibili

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 02:39 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: >> array_diff_asccoc() comparing array(1,2,3) to "Array" and saying those >> were equivalent without any sort of notice. > > That's not what happened, some contib was comparing array(1,2,3) to > array(1,2,array(3)) and even looking at the documentation

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> array_diff_asccoc() comparing array(1,2,3) to "Array" and saying those > were equivalent without any sort of notice. That's not what happened, some contib was comparing array(1,2,3) to array(1,2,array(3)) and even looking at the documentation it is not clear whether the cast should or should not

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 02:27 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Hm, there is a slight miscommunication which is my fault. > > I do not suggest a PHP engine being compatible with 5 and 6, gosh, no. > > I suggest a PHP engine compatible with 5.3 and 5.4. Is that a > maintenance mess too? The difference should be a

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Hm, there is a slight miscommunication which is my fault. I do not suggest a PHP engine being compatible with 5 and 6, gosh, no. I suggest a PHP engine compatible with 5.3 and 5.4. Is that a maintenance mess too? The difference should be a lot, lot smaller. And yes, interaction is a problem and

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Hi, > > So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening accompanied by the version it was written for, it was tested with and then > the engine could switch to a compatibility mode for that version. > > Seems to me that this would solv

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 02:11 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > If you mean from the mistakes and get a better implementation? I have some ideas, > but first I'd be glad to learn why it was a mess. The whole concept of maintaining multiple personalities in the same codebase is a complete non-starter. The complex

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening accompanied by the version it was written for, it was tested with and then > the engine could switch to a compatibility mode for that version. > > Seems to me that this would solve the problem where a host can't upgrade to > a more modern vers

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

If you mean wrote: > On 02/03/2013 02:03 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: >> Well, fixing a segfault, adding a new function or method as it oft >> happened in PHP 5.3 is only breaking forwards compatibility not >> backwards -- if you have code that ran on PHP 5.3.4 it'll run on >> 5.3.5. The reverse is n

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 02:03 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Well, fixing a segfault, adding a new function or method as it oft > happened in PHP 5.3 is only breaking forwards compatibility not > backwards -- if you have code that ran on PHP 5.3.4 it'll run on > 5.3.5. The reverse is not true which causes some

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Well, fixing a segfault, adding a new function or method as it oft happened in PHP 5.3 is only breaking forwards compatibility not backwards -- if you have code that ran on PHP 5.3.4 it'll run on 5.3.5. The reverse is not true which causes some headaches to Drupal developers but it's not relevant t

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 01:48 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: >> We do not consider a change [...] a BC break > > Let me help: backwards compatibility means a host can upgrade a > package without inducing a lot of support tickets. Well, that is obviously not realistic. Every change we make has some level of BC i

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

> We do not consider a change [...] a BC break Let me help: backwards compatibility means a host can upgrade a package without inducing a lot of support tickets. Best, Karoly Negyesi -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: > On 02/03/2013 11:44 AM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > > Well, either I misunderstood the policy or it's broken. Here are some > > (note: please do not argue whether these are more correct than before, > > they very well might be but they broke bac

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 8:44 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Well, either I misunderstood the policy or it's broken. Here are some > (note: please do not argue whether these are more correct than before, > they very well might be but they broke backwards compatibility): > > For example, in 5.4 array_d

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

On 02/03/2013 11:44 AM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Well, either I misunderstood the policy or it's broken. Here are some > (note: please do not argue whether these are more correct than before, > they very well might be but they broke backwards compatibility): > > For example, in 5.4 array_diff_assoc

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Well, either I misunderstood the policy or it's broken. Here are some (note: please do not argue whether these are more correct than before, they very well might be but they broke backwards compatibility): For example, in 5.4 array_diff_assoc began to throw a notice when casting to string. Again

Re: [PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

hi, On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Karoly Negyesi wrote: > Hi, > > So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening accompanied by the version it was written for, it was tested with and then > the engine could switch to a compatibility mode for that version. > > Seems to me that this would

[PHP-DEV] Proposal for serious BC compatibility aka language versioning

Hi, So, if we are talking about PHP 6, then the opening