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Hi Edmond!
On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 7:02 AM Edmond Dantes wrote:
> Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
>
> I’d like to introduce the RFC for the True Async component.
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
>
> This time the work took longer because I was exploring different
> architect
Good day, Deleu!
> What happens if the coroutine didn't finish execution? does
`disposeSafely()` means that it will wait until completion to safely clear
it up or does it mean it will attempt to dispose and throw an exception if
it fails to do so?
Cooperative cancellation implies that a coroutine
Hello, Rowan!
> I don't have time to dig into the details of this draft at the moment,
but will say that a vote in two weeks is not at all realistic.
I just used the Flow from the Wiki. :)
> My only other comment at a very quick glance is that I see the Context
section is still included, and stil
On 17 April 2025 09:54:26 BST, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>> My only other comment at a very quick glance is that I see the Context
>section is still included, and still has most of its complexity.
>Almost every section of the RFC has a "Motivation" subsection, which
>explains why a particular tool i
Hello, Vincent.
> The `spawn` keyword might disqualify this rfc, i talked to alot of php
devs about this rfc and they all had a similar complaint about the keyword,
maybe a keyword choice poll might help when the rfc voting goes live.
To have any kind of vote, we need multiple options. The keywor
Here are list of the problems i saw in this RFC:
1.) The `spawn` keyword might disqualify this rfc, i talked to alot of php
devs about this rfc and they all had a similar complaint about the keyword,
maybe a keyword choice poll might help when the rfc voting goes live.
2.) This whole rfc seem a l
> The link in Patches and Tests is currently giving a 404 Not Found.
> Can you update the link to your proof of concept implementation?
Thank you for pointing that out. I’ve corrected the link.
https://github.com/EdmondDantes/php-src/tree/async/ext/async
The link in Patches and Tests is currently giving a 404 Not Found. Can
you update the link to your proof of concept implementation?
On 16 April 2025 10:59:25 BST, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
>
>I’d like to introduce the RFC for the True Async component.
>
>https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
>
> This RFC will go to a vote in about two weeks.
Hi Ed,
I don't have time to dig into the
is "True Async" a fancy way of saying multithreading?
Seems like a threading api to me
Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
I’d like to introduce the RFC for the True Async component.
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
This time the work took longer because I was exploring different
architectural options and paid more attention to how it works in other
languages.
I was
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Continuing the discussion from [[PHP-DEV] PHP True Async RFC - Stage 2](
https://discourse.thephp.foundation/t/php-dev-php-true-async-rfc-stage-2/1573/16
):
[quote="Crell, post:16, topic:1573"]
// Creates an async scope, in which you can create coroutines.
[/quote]
Yes, I understand wh
>
> "Cheating" in the sense that you wrote out a "general syntax",
>
I got it.
> That's not the problem; the problem is that the following are all
equivalent expressions:
> (((foo(
In principle, this is not a problem because the expression in parentheses
preceded by `spawn` is unambiguously
Oops, I made a mistake in the logic of `Scope` and coroutines.
According to the RFC, the following code behaves differently:
```php
currentScope()->spawn ... // This coroutine belongs to the Scope
spawn ... // This one is a child coroutine
```
I was sure that I had checked all the major edge cas
On 19 March 2025 15:51:38 GMT, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>>
>> "Cheating" in the sense that you wrote out a "general syntax",
>>
>I got it.
>
>> That's not the problem; the problem is that the following are all
>equivalent expressions:
>> (((foo(
>
>In principle, this is not a problem because
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> At the language abstraction level, we can say that spawn performs a
single operation: it creates an execution context. In this case, the *execution
context* is a low-level term that refers to the combination of processor
register states and the call stack (as well as the state of the Zend
engine)
>
> You're cheating again - you've put an extra pair of brackets around one
> expression and not the other, and assumed they'll work differently, but
that's
> not the grammar you proposed.
>
Why am I cheating?
> spawn (getClosure());
This is an honest statement, provided that the second parenthese
Hello.
>
> So as an outline, I would recommend:
>
Yes, your suggestion is interesting. I'll think about that section next
week.
However, I can say that I’ve already dropped the “philosophy” section. I
decided to move it into a separate article that will be available as an
artifact.
Such articles
>
> You already explicitly await all fibers spawned in the generateReport
function, you get all the data you need, any extra spawned fibers should
not interest you for the purpose of the logic of generateReport.
>
In this specific code, it only awaits the tasks it has launched itself.
So, if anot
>
> As I write more code examples, I'm starting to get annoyed by the verbosity
> of the `spawn in $scope` construct—especially in situations where all spawns
> need to happen within the same context.
>
> At the same time, in 80% of cases, it turns out that explicitly defining
> `$scope` is th
>
> Again, that's the *how*, not the *why*. We only need to "get rid of" the
parentheses if there's some reason to type them in the first place.
>
I’ve already understood that. You mean it’s not the reason, but one of the
possible solutions.
But it’s one of the solutions that, from my point of vie
On 20/03/2025 11:01, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> >
> > Specifically, what is the use case where syntax #2, "spawn
function_call" is not good enough, leading us to add a special case into
the grammar.
> >
> Additional parentheses around + parentheses after. That is,
(closure)(). The goal is to get r
>
> Nitpick to make sure we're talking about the same thing: What does
"Separate execution context" mean here? Because a keyword whose
description includes "and" is always a yellow flag at least.
>
At the language abstraction level, we can say that spawn performs a single
operation: it creates a
>>
>> This example highlights one of the concerns I have with fibers and this
approach in general. That example will still execute synchronously, taking
file_get_contents() * 3, even though it is in a coroutine function.
>>
>Is that really a problem? If a programmer wrote the code `$x = 1 / 0`,
t
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, at 2:06 AM, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> This is simply a wonderful explanation. I will be able to go through each
> point.
>
> But before that, let's recall what spawn essentially is.
> Spawn is an operation that creates a separate execution context and
> then calls a function
>
> This example highlights one of the concerns I have with fibers and this
approach in general. That example will still execute synchronously, taking
file_get_contents() * 3, even though it is in a coroutine function.
>
Is that really a problem? If a programmer wrote the code `$x = 1 / 0`, then
On Thu, Mar 20, 2025, at 12:01, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> ```php
> spawn fn() => [file_get_content(), file_get_content(), file_get_content()]
> ```
This example highlights one of the concerns I have with fibers and this
approach in general. That example will still execute synchronously, taking
fi
> In terms of the grammar, it is a special case of #1
yes.
> This example maybe helps explain why this might be surprising:
> spawn $action;
Aha, so if I can write `spawn closure`, why can't I do the same with a
variable?
Yes, this creates an inconsistency.
that's to be expected since the parent
On 20 March 2025 07:06:16 GMT, Edmond Dantes wrote:
I forgot to include some relevant text to quote, but I absolutely agree that
syntax #2 should be our default.
I think the only thing I'm still unsure of is whether we need anything else on
top of it, and if so what.
>
>> 4: keyword in
This is simply a wonderful explanation. I will be able to go through each
point.
But before that, let's recall what spawn essentially is.
Spawn is an operation that creates a separate execution context and then
calls a function within it.
To perform this, spawn requires two things:
1. **callable**
First, side note: When I said "Tim" in my earlier messages, I was in fact
referring to Rowan. I do not know why I confused Tim and Rowan. My apologies
to both Tim and Rowan for the confusion.
On Tue, Mar 18, 2025, at 2:26 AM, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> Hello, Larry.
>
>>
>> First off, it desperate
On 19/03/2025 19:24, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> Yes, that would probably be a bad choice as well. Which is why I've
repeatedly suggested a different keyword, and AFAIK you still haven't
actually voiced an opinion on that.
Does this concern the syntax of `spawn block {}` or did I miss something?
>
> But even though we're talking in circles about why,
> your latest examples do avoid the particular problem I was trying to
describe.
>
I thought the problem was that the syntax wouldn't work. Is there any other
issue?
>
> Yes, that would probably be a bad choice as well. Which is why I've
rep
>
> When even the official language documentation is telling you in ALL CAPS
to not use something, you automatically know it’s a major footgun which has
already been abused by newbies.
>
This is a compelling example of why you should not use the await
currentScope() construct. Thank you.
>
>
> Please, don't use word operator in this context. It's a keyword,
> statement or language construct, but not operator. It's important
> especially when you write an RFC.
>
Thank you so much for paying attention to this!
On 19 March 2025 11:27:11 GMT, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>>
>> You're cheating again - you've put an extra pair of brackets around one
>> expression and not the other, and assumed they'll work differently, but
>that's
>> not the grammar you proposed.
>>
>
>Why am I cheating?
"Cheating" in the sense
On 19.03.2025 12:51, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>
> or other weird shenanigans? I think it would be better as a statement.
>
Your example was absolutely convincing.
I have nothing to argue with :)
So, `suspend` is 100% an operator.
Please, don't use word operator in this context. It's a keyword,
>
> Generally, RFCs are for changes in the language itself, not for API
contracts in C. That can generally be handled in PRs, if I understand
correctly.
>
I thought this was handled by PHP INTERNAL.
So I have no idea how it actually works.
>
> or other weird shenanigans? I think it would be bet
>
> P.S. + 1 example:
>
>
> declare(strict_types=1);
>
> use Async\Scope;
> use function Async\currentScope;
>
> function fetchUrl(string $url): string {
> $ctx = stream_context_create(['http' => ['timeout' => 5]]);
> return file_get_contents($url, false, $ctx);
> }
>
> function fetc
On 19 March 2025 07:07:36 GMT, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>Continuing the discussion from [[PHP-DEV] PHP True Async RFC - Stage 2](
>https://discourse.thephp.foundation/t/php-dev-php-true-async-rfc-stage-2/1573/24
>):
>
>[quote="Rowan_Tommins_IMSoP, post:24, topic:1573"]
J
Continuing the discussion from [[PHP-DEV] PHP True Async RFC - Stage 2](
https://discourse.thephp.foundation/t/php-dev-php-true-async-rfc-stage-2/1573/24
):
[quote="Rowan_Tommins_IMSoP, post:24, topic:1573"]
I'm still confused why you started talking about how to implement "de
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025, at 10:24, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
>
> Here is a new version of the RFC dedicated to asynchrony.
>
> Key differences from the previous version:
>
> * The RFC is not based on Fiber; it int
On 18 March 2025 08:22:18 GMT, Edmond Dantes wrote:
spawning in a scope a "second-class citizen" if `spawn foo($bar);`
Reminds me of *"post-purchase rationalization"* or the *"IKEA effect".*
when effort has already been invested into something, and then suddenly,
there's a more convenient
On Tue, Mar 18, 2025, at 8:45 AM, Talysson Lima wrote:
> If I say it's bright, you call it dark.
> If I choose the east, you push for the south.
> You’re not seeking a path, just a fight...
> Debating with you? Not worth the time!
Please do not top post.
--Larry Garfield
If I say it's bright, you call it dark.
If I choose the east, you push for the south.
You’re not seeking a path, just a fight...
Debating with you? Not worth the time!
Em ter., 18 de mar. de 2025 às 03:00, Larry Garfield
escreveu:
> On Sun, Mar 16, 2025, at 4:24 AM, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> > Good
>
> spawning in a scope a "second-class citizen" if `spawn foo($bar);`
>
Reminds me of *"post-purchase rationalization"* or the *"IKEA effect".*
when effort has already been invested into something, and then suddenly,
there's a more convenient way. And that convenient way seems to devalue the
fi
On 18 March 2025 05:59:07 GMT, Larry Garfield wrote:
>My biggest issue, though, is that I honestly can't tell what the mental model
>is supposed to be. The RFC goes into detail about three different async
>models. Are those standard terms you're borrowing from elsewhere, or your own
>crea
Hello, Larry.
>
> First off, it desperately needs an "executive summary" section up at the
top.
> There's a *lot* going on, and having a big-picture overview would help a
ton. (For
> examples, see property hooks[1] and pattern matching[2].)
>
I looked at the examples you provided, but I still don
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025, at 4:24 AM, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
>
> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
>
> Here is a new version of the RFC dedicated to asynchrony.
>
> Key differences from the previous version:
>
> * The RFC is not based on Fiber; it introdu
On 17/03/2025 07:58, Edmond Dantes wrote:
However, I really liked the `$scope->spawn()` construct in the example
code, as it feels the most natural compared to `spawn in`.
Moreover, the `spawn in` expression is quite complex to implement, but
I don't have enough experience to evaluate it prope
# BoundedScope
I tried to refine the `BoundedScope` class to its logical completeness,
considering your feedback.
However, I no longer like it because it now resembles an advanced
`ComposeFuture` or `BoundedFuture` (I'm not even sure which one).
There is no doubt that such functionality is needed
Hello.
In this email, I will focus only on the syntax because it is a separate and
rather complex topic.
First, the RFC does not clearly describe the syntax, which needs to be
fixed.
Second, you are right that methods and operators cause confusion.
However, I really liked the `$scope->spawn()` co
Hello, Vincent.
>
> Personally, i love the formal RFC for it's low level accessibility and
this new RFC isn't that bad.
>
If you mean classes like SocketHandle and so on, then the low-level API can
be available as a separate extension.
>
> The `spawn` keyword maybe the right keyword to use but
On 16/03/2025 09:24, Edmond Dantes wrote:
Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
Here is a new version of the RFC dedicated to asynchrony.
I would like to once again thank everyone who participated in the
previous discussion. It was great!
Thank
Edmond, I program microcontrollers. I have a "main loop" and
"interruption loops" which are not part of the "main loop" since they are
dependent on some event like a button push (for example) and they are
dependent on random user input. So for the wording I would use the word
'aside' because it is
> What is this?
I mean structured concurrency:
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async#structured_concurrency
What is this?
On Sun, Mar 16, 2025 at 9:30 PM Edmond Dantes wrote:
> > Spawning a child thread means you don't care about if it will ever
> finish.
>
> In the context of this RFC, the parent limits the execution time of child
> coroutines. Does this mean that the verb *spawn* is not the best ch
> Spawning a child thread means you don't care about if it will ever
finish.
In the context of this RFC, the parent limits the execution time of child
coroutines. Does this mean that the verb *spawn* is not the best choice?
Edmond, async stuff is like having another thread. So "spawn" fits but also
"throw" in terms of what it does. At least what it actually does (at least
what it must) at a low level.
> The `spawn` keyword maybe the right keyword to use but it seems more
weird, can we find another keyword to use oth
Just in case, I'll state this explicitly.
The current RFC does not remove features from the previous version; rather,
it represents its high-level part, with structural concurrency added. It
has been reduced in size, making it easier to discuss.
>From an implementation perspective, it seems that a
Personally, i love the formal RFC for it's low level accessibility and this
new RFC isn't that bad.
The `spawn` keyword maybe the right keyword to use but it seems more weird,
can we find another keyword to use other than that? Most languages i've
seen make use of only the `async/await` keyword.
Hello.
>
> Just one quick question for now; why is `suspend()` a function and not a
statement?
>
Yes, suspend() is a function from the Async namespace.
I couldn't find any strong reasons to define it as an operator:
```php
suspend();
// vs
suspend;
```
For example, the spawn operator makes the c
On 16/03/2025 09:24, Edmond Dantes wrote:
Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
Here is a new version of the RFC dedicated to asynchrony.
Key differences from the previous version:
* The RFC is not based on Fiber; it introduces a separate class
rep
Good day, everyone. I hope you're doing well.
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/true_async
Here is a new version of the RFC dedicated to asynchrony.
Key differences from the previous version:
* The RFC is not based on Fiber; it introduces a separate class
representation for the asynchronous context.
* A
>
> Yeah, this is a Watcher, a periodic function that is called to clean up or
> check something. Yes, it’s a very specific pattern. And of course, the
> Watcher belongs to the service. If the service is destroyed, the Watcher
> should also be stopped.
It’s a Async\Interval, but it behaves ent
On Sat, Mar 8, 2025, at 09:06, Eugene Sidelnyk wrote:
>>
>
>> The uncoloring of functions in PHP is probably one of the most annoying
>> aspects of fibers, IMHO. It's hard to explain unless you've been using them
>> awhile. But, with colored functions, the caller has control over when the
>>
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8.3.19. This is a security release that addresses CVE-2024-11235,
CVE-2025-1219, CVE-2025-1736, CVE-2025-1861, CVE-2025-1734, and
CVE-2025-1217.
All PHP 8.3 users are encouraged to upgrade to this version.
(The 8.3.18 releas
On Fri, Mar 7, 2025, at 09:48, Edmond Dantes wrote:
>
> >
> > As far as I know, all current SAPIs follow one of two patterns:
> >
>
> It seems that my example, although taken from real life, is more of an
> anti-pattern. Let's take a real example that is not an anti-pattern.
>
> There is a B
>
> Sure:
>
Yeah, this is a Watcher, a periodic function that is called to clean up or
check something. Yes, it’s a very specific pattern. And of course, the
Watcher belongs to the service. If the service is destroyed, the Watcher
should also be stopped.
In the context of this RFC, it's better t
> Let me summarize the current state for today:
>
> I am abandoning startScheduler and the idea of preserving backward
> compatibility with await_all or anything else in that category. The scheduler
> will be initialized implicitly, and this does not concern user-land.
> Consequently, the spaw
>
> As noted, I am in broad agreement with the previously linked article on
"playpens" (even if I hate that name), that the "go style model" is too
analogous to goto statements.
>
The syntax and logic you describe are very close to Kotlin's implementation.
I would say that Kotlin is probably the
On Sun, Mar 9, 2025, at 11:56 AM, Edmond Dantes wrote:
> *Let me summarize the current state for today:*
>
> 1. I am abandoning `startScheduler` and the idea of preserving
> backward compatibility with `await_all` or anything else in that
> category. The scheduler will be initialized implicitly
>
> I can give you several examples where such logic is used in Amphp
libraries, and it will break if they are invoked within an async block.
>
Got it, it looks like I misunderstood the post due to my focus. So,
essentially, you're talking not so much about wait_all itself, but rather
about the p
> I think you've misunderstood what I meant by optional. I meant that putting
> the fiber into the managed context would be optional *at the point where the
> fiber was spawned*.
>
> It sounds like you think:
>
> 1) The language absolutely needs a "spawn detached" operation, i.e. a way of
> st
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