Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> What pray tell are those missing pieces? Aren't they mostly building a browser based ide > plus doing training courses ? Sure, and I believe they plan to have that browser-based IDE talk to a virtual server, with a compiler and set of libraries they maintain. That'd solve Adrian's problems, no?

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

What pray tell are those missing pieces? Aren't they mostly building a browser based ide plus doing training courses ? On May 4, 2013 1:42 PM, "Ben Doyle" wrote: > You might want to check out > FPComplete, > if you haven't already. They're far more focus

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

You might want to check out FPComplete, if you haven't already. They're far more focused on making it easy for organizations to adopt Haskell than the community can be. As they say: "Where the open-source process is not sufficient to meet commercial adoptio

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

I think you missed my point. My point was to show that what you understand as "backward compatibility" here is totally delivered by Haskell and its environment, and how easy it is to be "conservative" (where "keeping it running" as it is is only a matter of renaming a few imports). > it seems imp

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Well I'm enormously grateful to Niklas for fixing those two things. Simon was right that people are very supportive around here. Even though I've been advised against WASH already, it seems important to fix that stuff because it's a liability to Haskell to have broken code kicking around where peo

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

All right, here you go: https://github.com/nh2/WashNGo https://github.com/nh2/WashNGo/commit/08010e7404219470a827f3e4172004f9d2aedc29 Took me around 75 minutes. Think about it a bit: I just ported thirty thousand lines of code that I have never seen before and that has bit-rotted for over six y

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 04/05/13 01:52, Nicolas Trangez wrote: > On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 10:40 -0700, Hilco Wijbenga wrote: >> Given the apparent simplicity of the changes needed to keep one's >> Haskell code up to snuff and the strong typing inherent in Haskell >> code, would it not be possible to create something simil

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, 2013-05-03 at 10:40 -0700, Hilco Wijbenga wrote: > On 3 May 2013 09:44, Niklas Hambüchen wrote: > > While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the > > original problems: > > > > On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote: > >> I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 3 May 2013 09:44, Niklas Hambüchen wrote: > While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the > original problems: > > On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote: >> I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I >> tried WASH. I couldn't even install it b

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Adrian May wrote: > > > Is anybody in the Haskell community still interested in attracting new > users? If so I suggest you go play with Ruby on Rails. Then you'll know > what it's like to approach a complex and unfamiliar system where every > crumb requires a preci

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 05/03/2013 06:49 PM, Edward Kmett wrote: > "Tantamount to a new language" to fix a minor detail in a typeclass > hierarchy? That is just histrionic. *No* language is that stable. > > Scala makes dozens of changes like that between *minor* versions, and while > I hardly hold up their development

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 05/03/2013 06:44 PM, Niklas Hambüchen wrote: > While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the > original problems: > > On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote: >> I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I >> tried WASH. I couldn't even install i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

So basically it boiled down drop the haskell98 package dependency and use the new exception system, and import the right things to avoid the use of the no longer exported Prelude catch? On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Niklas Hambüchen wrote: > While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

"Tantamount to a new language" to fix a minor detail in a typeclass hierarchy? That is just histrionic. *No* language is that stable. Scala makes dozens of changes like that between *minor* versions, and while I hardly hold up their development practices as the best in the industry it is still som

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

While I certainly enjoy the discussion, how about addressing one of the original problems: On 02/05/13 13:27, Adrian May wrote: > I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I > tried WASH. I couldn't even install it because of the syntax change. I just fixed that in http

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 03:35:08PM +0100, Ozgur Akgun wrote: > Hi, > > On 3 May 2013 11:43, Tobias Dammers wrote: > > > > PS The proposal to fix Functor => Applicative => Monad has patches > > > attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman > > > always seems to trump somet

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Guy wrote: > http://hackage.haskell.org/**trac/ghc/wiki/**DefaultSuperclassInstances > > I'm surprised that the various superclass proposals haven't got more > attention, seeing as it would allow

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

That's approximately what I was describing, yes. Thanks! On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Guy wrote: > David Thomas wrote: > >> I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language >> tweak that could reduce breakage and add some >> convenience in both cases. It would not sur

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

I'm having a bit of trouble getting my brain around that, but if anybody cares about attracting new users, that might be relevant in itself. Perhaps I could be seen as an example of your swing-state. I'm no Haskell expert but I'd like to push it if I could cos I'm so sick of seeing huge codebases l

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

That's approximately what I was describing, yes. Thanks! On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Guy wrote: > David Thomas wrote: > >> I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language >> tweak that could reduce breakage and add some >> convenience in both cases. It would not sur

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

David Thomas wrote: I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language tweak that could reduce breakage and add some convenience in both cases. It would not surprise me at all if this has been thought of, examined, and discarded, but I don't have time to dig so I'll just la

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hi, On 3 May 2013 11:43, Tobias Dammers wrote: > > PS The proposal to fix Functor => Applicative => Monad has patches > > attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman > > always seems to trump something that will break a lot of code. > > This kind of "breaks everything" ch

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > Barring issues with changing datatypes / class instances, we can already > express many of the API changes you'd want to make to some library [1]. > Now, no one actually does what this proposal suggests - it's a lot of > work, and it doesn't work in general. However, the fact that Haskell m

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Adrian May wrote: > How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified > deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would agree. > I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over these > things. > This might n

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Adrian May wrote: > > > > On 3 May 2013 18:56, Ertugrul Söylemez wrote: > >> Adrian May wrote: >> >> > > Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform >> > > libraries: >> > >> > So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 09:34:21PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > I never doubted that people add new stuff for valid reasons. What I'm > interested in is whether or not it could have been done without breaking > anything. But having thought about it for a while, I'm tending to think > that version con

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

I'd also like to see these two. It occurs to me there may be language tweak that could reduce breakage and add some convenience in both cases. It would not surprise me at all if this has been thought of, examined, and discarded, but I don't have time to dig so I'll just lay it out quickly, and if

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 3 May 2013 18:56, Ertugrul Söylemez wrote: > Adrian May wrote: > > > > Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform > > > libraries: > > > > So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it > > please? > > I'll just pick a random example: Eq and Show ar

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Dependency breakage is certainly an unavoidable problem. However, I think Haskell is also in a much better position for having a technical solution to the frustration of breakages. Barring issues with changing datatypes / class instances, we can already express many of the API changes you'd want

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > > Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform > > libraries: > > So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it > please? I'll just pick a random example: Eq and Show are no longer superclasses of Num. I'm the author of the Netwire

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > PS The proposal to fix Functor => Applicative => Monad has patches > attached for GHC and base, but the backwards compatibility bogeyman always > seems to trump something that will break a lot of code. I think that should be fixed as well, but it would be tantamount to a new language. I gu

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 01:23:55PM +0300, Guy wrote: > That's what I thought of when I saw the original complaint - GHC is > too backwards compatible! There's far too much boilerplate because > of the Functor => Applicative => Monad mess. Float/Double being > Enums is ridiculous. None of this gets

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Ertugrul Söylemez wrote: Often demanded changes that may or may not happen in the future: * base: Make Functor a superclass of Monad. One of the two most commonly demanded change to the base library. Will break lots and lots of code. Reason: Would greatly simplify a lot of code.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > Changes already made in the base library or in one of the platform > libraries: > So could you pick the most unassailable and tell me more about it please? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Neil Davies wrote: > Isn't this a problem of timescale? > > Nothing can be backward compatible for ever (or at least nothing that > is being developed or maintained) I was referring to the Dependency Hell. I don't consider breaking changes a problem. Greets, Ertugrul -- Key-ID: E5DD8D11 "Er

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified > deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would > agree. I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over > these things. Changes already made in the base library or i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Isn't this a problem of timescale? Nothing can be backward compatible for ever (or at least nothing that is being developed or maintained) There will be, in the life of non-trival length project, change. We rely (and I mean rely) on Haskell s/w that was written over 10 years ago - we accept th

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

How about this: can you guys give me a detailed example of a justified deprecation: one so extremely obviously called for that even I would agree. I just want to understand the kind of logic that's applied over these things. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Raphael Gaschignard wrote: > I'm pretty sure most of us have experienced some issue with > dependencies breaking , and its probably the most frustrating problem > we can have have in any language. It's hard not to take this all a bit > personally. Maybe if we think more about how to solve this (g

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > I really don't know why somebody can't make a simple and well > intentioned point without getting attacked by people who feel > threatened over every little thing. It's because we're failing to see the problem. I mean, if you can pinpoint the source of your problems we could

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

ollins > *Sent:* 03 May 2013 08:27 > *To:* Adrian May > *Cc:* Haskell Cafe > *Subject:* Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility > > ** ** > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May > wrote: > > May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > you've let a 5-10 million line project spiral out of control without > putting the necessary software engineering infrastructure and controls in > place ... This issue you're having reflects a lot more strongly on your > technical culture than it does on any instability in GHC. > I can't di

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

...@haskell.org] On Behalf Of Gregory Collins Sent: 03 May 2013 08:27 To: Adrian May Cc: Haskell Cafe Subject: Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May mailto:adrian.alexander@gmail.com>> wrote: May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:48 AM, Adrian May wrote: > May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10 million line > project? > I build a project a couple orders of magnitude bigger than that dozens of times every day. Similar stories are not uncommon among people who inhabit this list.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > Yes, I try it out sometimes. And if it works, great. If not, too bad, > I'll wait until the next Haskell Platform. I don't whine about it in > public. > May I venture a guess that you never tried to manage a 5-10 million line project? That's what I do. I'm not a programmer, I'm a manager.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 8:43 PM, Adrian May wrote: > >> Also, the Haskell Platform ./configure step checks which version of GHC >> you have installed, and requires you to pass the option --enable-* >> unsupported*-*ghc*-version in order to compile it with anything other >> than GHC 7.4.2. >> >> Did

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > Also, the Haskell Platform ./configure step checks which version of GHC > you have installed, and requires you to pass the option --enable-* > unsupported*-*ghc*-version in order to compile it with anything other > than GHC 7.4.2. > > Did you try an unsupported version? And now you're compla

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > >> Now that's rapid maintenance, but it's still version hell because you've >> got to have that compiler installed first (even though HP is supposed to be >> a way to acquire haskell) and you probably haven't. You've probably got the >> one from the linux package which hasn't been maintained

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Emphatic agreement on this point. Likewise, the strong type system and the often helpful type error messages make it really easy to update code to work with more modern libs! -Carter On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 9:39 AM, David Thomas wrote: > If you are actively using something then keep it up to da

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Adrian May wrote: > So WASH is ancient history. OK, lets forget it. > > How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it > doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2. > GHC is up to 7.6. > Now that's rapid m

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

I'm sorry: it was showPackageId. And the tarball came from this page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~thiemann/WASH/ which certainly isn't secret to Gooliath: I got it by searching for "haskell cgi html". I don't know why you can't download it. Anyway, I've noted your opinions but today I r

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

@Adrian May if you want that much backward compatibility you probably need to move to an operating system that suports it. NixOS, already mentioned by another commentator, would be my recommendation if you really need the backward compatibility I just finished compiling both Flippi and WashNGo w

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hi Adrian I don't want to argue against your rant for the sake of it, but Haskell is a fairly conservative language. The Glasgow Haskell Compiler supports it's own dialect "Glasgow Haskell" which is fast moving, but the developers of GHC do work hard to maintain compatibility with standard Haskell

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:35:27PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > > I get a 403 FORBIDDEN on that. How did you get it? > > I guess you just gotta know the right people ;-) > > I attached the tarball. Don't say you got it from me, OK. That tarball still doesn't contain the string "getPackageId". You

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > I attached the tarball. Don't say you got it from me, OK. That's a weird thing to demand in a public mailing list with public search-engine-locatable archives. =) Greets, Ertugrul -- Not to be or to be and (not to be or to be and (not to be or to be and (not to be or to b

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On 3 May 2013 01:04, Brandon Allbery wrote: > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Adrian May > wrote: >>> >>> I think you're missing the point of the platform! >> >> >> I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it, >> which requires at least part of the > > Having to buil

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:23:12PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > > Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of > > these > > versions: > > > > http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12 > > http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12.0.1 > > http://www.infor

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of > these > versions: > > http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12 > http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.12.0.1 > > http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~thiemann/WASH/WashNGo-2.12.tgz > > ___

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 11:10:33PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > > What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source. > > It's in Setup.lhs, in WashNGo. Which source of WashNGo are you using? It doesn't appear in either of these versions: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/WashNGo-2.1

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source. > > It's in Setup.lhs, in WashNGo. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 10:36:18PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > Please would somebody explain to me what getPackageId did to incriminate > itself? What's getPackageId? It does not appear in the WASH source. Tom ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:36 AM, Adrian May wrote: > I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it, > which requires at least part of the platform. This is not for the faint of heart. Like *ALL* language distributions I know (C++ included), boot-strapping the next rev i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 10:36 AM, Adrian May wrote: > I think you're missing the point of the platform! >> > > I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it, > which requires at least part of the > Having to build it already indicates that something is wrong, unless you'

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > > I think you're missing the point of the platform! > I suppose I did miss the point of the platform: I was trying to build it, which requires at least part of the platform. As I say, the reason I was trying to build it was that I wrongly blamed the ubuntu package for WASH not working. But tha

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Adrian May wrote: > How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it > doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. > I think you're missing the point of the platform! It is an explicit set of versions, including GHC, that make a s

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

> > If you are actively using something then keep it up to date, encourage > someone to keep it up to date, pay someone to keep it up to date, or > migrate off of it. If you try building with a fresh set of packages every > so often, you can catch breaking changes early and deal with them when it'

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 09:26:15PM +0800, Adrian May wrote: > How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it > doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2. I'm uninformed in such matters, but from http://www.haskell.org/platform/changel

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

If you are actively using something then keep it up to date, encourage someone to keep it up to date, pay someone to keep it up to date, or migrate off of it. If you try building with a fresh set of packages every so often, you can catch breaking changes early and deal with them when it's typicall

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

So WASH is ancient history. OK, lets forget it. How about the Haskell Platform? Is that ancient history? Certainly not: it doesn't compile on anything but the very newest GHC. Not 7.4.1 but 7.4.2. Now that's rapid maintenance, but it's still version hell because you've got to have that compiler in

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Adrian May wrote: > Let's face it: this decision to change the default syntax in GHC7 means > that right now Haskell looks about as stable as Ruby on Rails. > > I just tried to use Flippi. It broke because of the syntax change so I > tried WASH. I couldn't even inst

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

John Lato wrote: > I don't think there's anything wrong with moving at a fast pace, nor > do I think backwards compatibility should be maintained in perpetuity. I think this statement pretty much covers the mindset of the Haskell community and also explains the higher breakage rate of Haskell pa

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > [...] If you'd rather see more using Haskell, I strongly suggest you > get a grip on what real companies actually have to worry about. It > ain't mathematical rigour. Backward compatibility is a big chunk of > it. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but you may be looking at i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 5:30 PM, Ertugrul Söylemez wrote: > To express this question in a broader context: Are you leaving a broken > tool and replacing it with a new shiny one? So I read the original post, and it really wasn't clear to me what exact changes were causing the issues; I don't th

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hello. On 2 May 2013 14:33, Adrian May wrote: > Hi Ertugrul, > > > Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =) > > By my standards that was a lullaby ;-) > > Everything you said is correct. Just like everything I said. > > The best policy lies between the two extremes. Your extre

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hi Ertugrul, > Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =) By my standards that was a lullaby ;-) Everything you said is correct. Just like everything I said. The best policy lies between the two extremes. Your extreme would be fine if Haskell presented itself as a purely theoret

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May wrote: > Please don't interpret this as a rant: I'm just feeling a bit > disappointed about probably having to give up on Haskell. > > [rant that update broke stuff] Well, it is a rant, so you can just as well concede it. =) The Haskell community and its descendants (Agda, Disciple,

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Byron Hale einfo.com> writes: > I was just in the process of trying to get Haskell 7.6 installed. You cannot "install Haskell 7.6". Haskell is a language. You can install a language implementation (compiler/interpreter). There may be several. You can also install a set of libraries. Thes

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Adrian May gmail.com> writes: > this decision to change the default syntax in GHC7 what decision? what syntax? here's the release notes (7 vs. 6) http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/7.0.1/html/users_guide/release-7-0-1.html I guess you are referring to hierarchical module names? (import List => i

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hello, everyone, I was just in the process of trying to get Haskell 7.6 installed. First I surveyed all the current OSes that seemed to support it. FreeBSD 9.1 seemed like a good candidate. However, FreeBSD 9.1 has many practical problems of its own. So far, I have 7.4 installed, but not 7.6

[Haskell-cafe] Backward compatibility

Hi All, Please don't interpret this as a rant: I'm just feeling a bit disappointed about probably having to give up on Haskell. Let's face it: this decision to change the default syntax in GHC7 means that right now Haskell looks about as stable as Ruby on Rails. I just tried to use Flippi. It br