Luke:
>https://wiki.parabola.nu/Emulator_licensing_issues
>
>This may prove useful in the event of further research/discussion.
this was mentioned, and it's missing crucial information.
let's add ndiswrapper to it.
it would be classified as "free + free use", but it is still rejected;
because [0]
On 4/9/16, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
> alírio eyng wrote:
>> so mame is not just an emulator.
>> it is a emulator, disassembler and debugger.
...
>> is there a similar environment to a current architecture?
> community/qtspim 9.1.17-2
> New user interface for spim, a MIPS simulator.
not r
On Mon, 4 Apr 2016 22:23:17 +
alírio eyng wrote:
> Felipe Sanches:
> >MAME provides an interactive debugger
> so mame is not just an emulator.
> it is a emulator, disassembler and debugger.
> this is relevant information i can't see in official documentation,
> thanks.
>
[...]
> a interest
On 4/5/16, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
>documentation (and packaging as you point it) can
> steer users towards free software.
...
> Which one to do would then depend on the context.
> For instance with qemu and libvirt, the software was modified not to
> steer users towards running non-free GNU
On Sat, 2 Apr 2016 08:48:58 +
alírio eyng wrote:
> On 4/2/16, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
> > Why not just requiring some documentation along the emulator that
> > documents at least one fully free software that can run on it.
> this is missing some complexity:
> we don't want something
Felipe Sanches:
>On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 7:23 PM, alírio eyng wrote:
>> this development environment works for all architectures mame supports?
>Yes. The debugger dialog is generic
...
>mame/src/devices/cpu$ ls
...
>i386
the debugger works on all architectures
i can use i386
i can use z80 and read
The other situation when I was able to benefit from the automatically
generated custom debugger UI was when working on emulating the
(non-free) game Another World from the 90's. It was originally
executed on Amiga computers, so the debugger would let me see the
opcodes of the Amiga CPU. But the gam
On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 7:23 PM, alírio eyng wrote:
> Felipe Sanches:
>>MAME provides an interactive debugger
> so mame is not just an emulator.
> it is a emulator, disassembler and debugger.
> this is relevant information i can't see in official documentation, thanks.
>
> it seems even with a obso
Felipe Sanches:
>MAME provides an interactive debugger
so mame is not just an emulator.
it is a emulator, disassembler and debugger.
this is relevant information i can't see in official documentation, thanks.
it seems even with a obsolete executable format, it can be a
interesting development envi
On Mon, Apr 4, 2016 at 12:26 AM, alírio eyng wrote:
> Felipe Sanches:
>>I will try not to talk here any more, unless I
>>have something really new to say.
> i will probably continue replying while people are quoting me and
> making proposals or confusing general-purpose runtime dependencies
> with
Felipe Sanches:
>I think MAME is likely not compatible with the free sw distro
>guidelines.
ignoring the trademark; as a whole, mame is in the same category as
wine, which is allowed.
but most parts of it are in the same category as ndiswrapper; i don't
think this parts should be allowed just becau
I will attempt to stop posting to this thread because I think I
already presented all of my points here.
To summarize my conclusions:
I think MAME is likely not compatible with the free sw distro
guidelines. And I think shipping a prebuilt binary package of MAME is
not really useful for **most** o
Felipe Sanches:
>On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 3:36 PM, alírio eyng wrote:
>> Tobias Platen:
>>> Emulators can be useful for reverse engineering
...
>> emulators are the _result_ of reverse engineering, not tools to do it.
...
>I completely disagree!
>I have been actively using MAME to perform reverse en
On Sun, Apr 3, 2016 at 3:36 PM, alírio eyng wrote:
> Tobias Platen:
>> Emulators can be useful for reverse engineering
> reverse engineering is the action of understanding undocumented
> interfaces (mostly hardware).
> emulators are the _result_ of reverse engineering, not tools to do it.
> this r
Tobias Platen:
> Emulators can be useful for reverse engineering
reverse engineering is the action of understanding undocumented
interfaces (mostly hardware).
emulators are the _result_ of reverse engineering, not tools to do it.
this result is useless if there's no other interface implementations
i think i got the root of the controversy:
some people started to think of emulators as hardware (replacements)
hardware is useful to develop to
some people started to think of emulators as obsolete apis
obsolete apis are not useful to develop to
i still see emulators (like ndiswrapper) as obsol
On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:30:17 -0600
Isaac David wrote:
> Hi,
Hi,
> My view was that while useless in a 100% free environment just
> having them installed and inspecting their user interfaces wouldn't
> violate your freedom in any way. A free emulator with free
> dependencies wouldn't be unethical
On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:31:40 +
alírio eyng wrote:
> these are the approaches i can think:
> *extremely conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
> removing all emulators
> *conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
> make packages/executables like game1-emulator1, game1-
On 4/2/16, Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli wrote:
> Why not just requiring some documentation along the emulator that
> documents at least one fully free software that can run on it.
this is missing some complexity:
we don't want something better done natively (we exclude ndiswrapper)[1]
but we still want
Ivan Zaigralin:
> Yes, it emulates non-free software.
wait, this is missing the point
there are several categories of software that are itself free and can
be used to run (directly or indirectly) nonfree software:
nonfree down in dag: dosemu
_only_ nonfree up in dag: ndiswrapper
nonfree oriented c
On 4/1/16, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> alírio eyng writes:
>> Isaac David:
>>> However in the last few days I have
>>>seen many arguments showing there are yet more valid uses I hadn't
>>>imagined, like learning from the source code and testing portability
>>>without leaving your comfy libre OS.
>> s
alírio eyng writes:
> Isaac David:
>> However in the last few days I have
>>seen many arguments showing there are yet more valid uses I hadn't
>>imagined, like learning from the source code and testing portability
>>without leaving your comfy libre OS.
> source code is out of question for a dist
Isaac David:
>Parabola does ship fully free emulators for which no free games
>exist. At this moment the user has to opt-in for installing
>your-freedom_emu to block those packages, so it actually falls
>down somewhere between your "liberal" and "extremely liberal"
>categories.
"parabola follows ex
Hi,
Parabola does ship fully free emulators for which no free games
exist. At this moment the user has to opt-in for installing
your-freedom_emu to block those packages, so it actually falls
down somewhere between your "liberal" and "extremely liberal"
categories.
My view was that while useless
On 03/30/16 12:11, Mark H Weaver wrote:
> IngeGNUe writes:
>
>>> I can assume you have verified it for compliance. Please also reconsider
>>> if than free software distribution shall include malware GPL licensed
>>> software, because we cannot know neither assume that people are going to
>>> use
Hi!
Thanks Chris for the thoughtful comments and insightful examples!
Christopher Allan Webber skribis:
> I think this is a really bad path to go down. I hope we don't go down
> it. Let's condemn proprietary software, but not make assumptions that
> free software systems will only be used for
IngeGNUe writes:
>>I can assume you have verified it for compliance. Please also reconsider
>>if than free software distribution shall include malware GPL licensed
>>software, because we cannot know neither assume that people are going to
>>use it for malware purposes, even though it is malware.
>I can assume you have verified it for compliance. Please also reconsider
>if than free software distribution shall include malware GPL licensed
>software, because we cannot know neither assume that people are going to
>use it for malware purposes, even though it is malware.
The FSDG already rul
Hello Ludo,
Please understand, I have nothing personal against you and your work, I
appreciate it much, to make functional operating system and future is
bright, as people will tend to use Guix and GuixSD for the features it
offers.
There shall be somebody checking the issues before the package i
On 2016-03-29 12:32, Thompson, David wrote:
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Christopher Allan Webber
wrote:
Mark H Weaver writes:
Hi,
I haven't yet looked closely at MAME, but for now I wanted to address
the question of WINE.
Jean Louis writes:
Put yourself in the view point of free softw
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Christopher Allan Webber
wrote:
> Mark H Weaver writes:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I haven't yet looked closely at MAME, but for now I wanted to address
>> the question of WINE.
>>
>> Jean Louis writes:
>>> Put yourself in the view point of free software user. What such user
Hello,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 06:15:43PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> There’s compliance officer going to tell us whether a proposed extension
> to the FSDG is good or not. The FSDG are community rules, not a law.
When I referred to legality, that was in regards to trademark issues, as
Ninte
Mark H Weaver writes:
> Hi,
>
> I haven't yet looked closely at MAME, but for now I wanted to address
> the question of WINE.
>
> Jean Louis writes:
>> Put yourself in the view point of free software user. What such user is
>> going to do with WINE?
>
> WINE has at least one useful purpose for a
these are the approaches i can think:
*extremely conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
removing all emulators
*conservative (eliminating false positive errors)[1]
make packages/executables like game1-emulator1, game1-emulator2, ...
and not allowing direct emulator installation/execu
Jean Louis skribis:
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 04:23:15PM +0200, Mathieu Lirzin wrote:
[...]
>> I have no interest in MAME, but refusing to distribute it makes
>> assumption about what people are going to use it for. The fact that
>> apparently “most” people are running non-free stuff on top of
Jean Louis skribis:
> Nintendo trademark in the package is certainly wrong. Not even the
> author is advertising in that manner the package. Did you go to author's
> page to see that there is no trace of "Nintendo" on the page?
>
> The point is of legal nature. It is not based on opinions.
Under
Jean Louis writes:
> Hello Nils,
>
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 02:41:54PM +0200, Nils Gillmann wrote:
>> If we drop it, there will be very likely inofficial repositories
>> carrying it, like there are now for custom packaged non-free
>> software. And those people will end up coming to our chat and
Hello Mathieu,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 04:23:15PM +0200, Mathieu Lirzin wrote:
> When talking to people contributing to a GNU project which consists of a
> FSDG compliant package manager and distribution, this is not good
> communication to suggest that “they” don't understand the true meaning
> o
Hi,
Jean Louis writes:
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:35:12PM +0100, ra...@openmailbox.org wrote:
>> MAME, Wine, Qemu and GNU/linux-libre all have the following in common: You
>> can use them to run non free software. While they can all also be used to
>> run free software I don't think this is im
Hello Nils,
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 02:41:54PM +0200, Nils Gillmann wrote:
> If we drop it, there will be very likely inofficial repositories
> carrying it, like there are now for custom packaged non-free
> software. And those people will end up coming to our chat and
> lists, and we have to deal
Hello Ludovic,
You do need legal counsel my friend. I suggest you ask for help of few
attorneys from FSF to help you with understanding on what trademarks are
and how they can be used to demand control over their rights.
Nintendo trademark in the package is certainly wrong. Not even the
author is
Jean Louis skribis:
> Please see what I mean:
> http://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html#trademarks
>
> The problem may arise from Nintendo, as they are owner of the
> trademark.
>
> For your understanding:
>
> - I cannot just take your package definition and copy it on
Mark H Weaver skribis:
> Jean Louis writes:
>> Put yourself in the view point of free software user. What such user is
>> going to do with WINE?
>
> WINE has at least one useful purpose for a free software developer: to
> help them develop and test Windows ports of their software compiled with
>
Jean Louis writes:
> On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:35:12PM +0100, ra...@openmailbox.org wrote:
>> MAME, Wine, Qemu and GNU/linux-libre all have the following in common: You
>> can use them to run non free software. While they can all also be used to
>> run free software I don't think this is importa
Jean Louis writes:
> Hello,
>
> - when a package definition includes "Homepage to: http://mamedev.org/";
> then GuixSD is endorsing and referencing non-free software for which
> MAME was made, while you maybe refer to software package alone.
>
> - if developers include MAME, WINE and other em
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:35:12PM +0100, ra...@openmailbox.org wrote:
> MAME, Wine, Qemu and GNU/linux-libre all have the following in common: You
> can use them to run non free software. While they can all also be used to
> run free software I don't think this is important. Here's why: The freedo
On 2016-03-29 09:25, Jookia wrote:
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 09:30:40AM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
I cannot understand the rationalization and justifications based on
the
single fact how WINE/MAME or other similar emulators are free software
by themselves, and that is the only reason to include the
Hello Taylan,
Thank you for bringing up your opinion and also issue with Nintendo
emulator.
My opinion is that such software shall not be included in free software
distribution. As using such emulators, also encourages users to ask for
support within free software community, and in that case, peo
Jean Louis writes:
> [...]
>
> Including MAME or any other emulator, even though non-free as such, if
> such emulator is practically of no use to free software users without
> non-free additions or parts, firmware, blobs, or ROMs, is giving
> incentive to free software users to use non-free.
>
>
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 09:30:40AM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> I cannot understand the rationalization and justifications based on the
> single fact how WINE/MAME or other similar emulators are free software
> by themselves, and that is the only reason to include them, but let us
> avoid all the rea
Hello,
- when a package definition includes "Homepage to: http://mamedev.org/";
then GuixSD is endorsing and referencing non-free software for which
MAME was made, while you maybe refer to software package alone.
- if developers include MAME, WINE and other emulators that are
basically foun
Hey again,
I think this is an interesting discussion, so let's deal with facts rather than
speculation.
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 06:42:43AM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> - decision to include MAME in a free GNU distribution directly
> influences users to use non-free software and promotes non-free
For further thinkering, for those people who shoule be deciding what
software shall be included in free software distribution and what not,
here are some arguments:
Guidelines, read them well, especially sections such as "Nonfree
Firmware", then section "Trademarks", and "Please Teach Users about
Hi,
I haven't yet looked closely at MAME, but for now I wanted to address
the question of WINE.
Jean Louis writes:
> Put yourself in the view point of free software user. What such user is
> going to do with WINE?
WINE has at least one useful purpose for a free software developer: to
help them
On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:55:16PM +0200, Jean Louis wrote:
> I am free software user. I don't want my children to find MAME on my
> computer. I have 3 children. They will be using free software
> distributions, with free software BIOS on free hardware.
>
> I don't want my children to find MAME on
I have already sent request to FSF to review this issue. But here it is
for the list.
I am free software user. I don't want my children to find MAME on my
computer. I have 3 children. They will be using free software
distributions, with free software BIOS on free hardware.
I don't want my childre
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