Re: [Groff] [pe...@schaffter.ca: Re: Back to the future]

2014-03-07 Thread Eric S. Raymond
Peter Schaffter : > As for groff itself, and good typography, I care about them > passionately, for reasons it would take a book to explain. We're > all the same, I think. Together--list subscribers and those > involved in active development--let's show a certain semantic nut > he's wrong about t

Re: [Groff] [pe...@schaffter.ca: Re: Back to the future]

2014-03-07 Thread Keith Marshall
On 07/03/14 08:27, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Peter Schaffter : >> As for groff itself, and good typography, I care about them >> passionately, for reasons it would take a book to explain. We're >> all the same, I think. Together--list subscribers and those >> involved in active development--let's

[Groff] Advocacy. (Was: Back to the future)

2014-03-07 Thread Ralph Corderoy
Hi Ingo, > > ancillary to backend improvement, there's a pressing need for groff > > advocacy. > > Sure, that may also help to attract not just users, but developers, > too. However, I don't think that advocacy needs to be limited to > advertising groff for writing novels (and mathematical treat

Re: [Groff] Back to the future

2014-03-07 Thread Mike Bianchi
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 11:54:11AM -0500, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Ingo Schwarze : > > The classical man(7) language is a purely presentational language > > and contains exactly three semantic macros as exceptions: TH, SH, SS. > > So basically, nothing except titles is semantic in there. > I'm awar

Re: [Groff] [pe...@schaffter.ca: Re: Back to the future]

2014-03-07 Thread Eric S. Raymond
Keith Marshall : > you continue to convey an impression, real or imagined, that you believe > groff's /raison de ĂȘtre/ to be man page production, which, of course, is > a world apart from reality -- including the reality of your typographic > instance above. You're imagining things. Calm down - n

Re: [Groff] Groff to pdf/Windows

2014-03-07 Thread Deri James
On Thu 06 Mar 2014 17:24:09 Peter Schaffter wrote: > > Keith, is there any chance I could add something along these lines > > to pdfroff if the -T pdf switch is passed to pdfroff? > > I'm all for this. pdfmom performs splendidly. Nary a hitch with > forward references. Non-mom users could reall

Re: [Groff] [pe...@schaffter.ca: Re: Back to the future]

2014-03-07 Thread Peter Schaffter
On Fri, Mar 07, 2014, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Peter Schaffter : > > As for groff itself, and good typography, I care about them > > passionately, for reasons it would take a book to explain. We're > > all the same, I think. Together--list subscribers and those > > involved in active development-

Re: [Groff] Back to the future

2014-03-07 Thread Anthony J. Bentley
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 10:58 AM, Mike Bianchi wrote: > I don't see why we are stuck. If there were macros that supported a semantic > representation of the common man page structures they could be added to -man. > > I imagine: > .SYNOPSIS > .Commandman > .FlagArgOp

[Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Eric S. Raymond
Anthony J. Bentley : > Funny, that looks almost exactly like what you posted. Since -mdoc > already exists, is shipped in man(1) with a great many systems > (certainly all the ones I've ever used), and already has thousands of > manpages written in it, why extend -man in a backwards incompatible >

Re: [Groff] Groff to pdf/Windows

2014-03-07 Thread Keith Marshall
On 07/03/14 17:35, Deri James wrote: > On Thu 06 Mar 2014 17:24:09 Peter Schaffter wrote: >>> Keith, is there any chance I could add something along these lines >>> to pdfroff if the -T pdf switch is passed to pdfroff? >> >> I'm all for this. pdfmom performs splendidly. Nary a hitch with >> forwa

Re: [Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Kristaps Dzonsons
The result is pure hell for anyone trying to interpret the mess with anything but groff itself. I believe I am the only person who has even tried this seriously. I managed to handle almost all of it, because I am exceptionally good at the kind of hacking required for the job. But not in fact all

Re: [Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Ingo Schwarze
Hi Eric, Eric S. Raymond wrote on Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 02:14:24PM -0500: > I've written an mdoc interpreter. It's in doclifter. And I'm here > to tell you why mdoc is not the solution you're looking for. Well, i already solved the problem with it, so you are somewhat late in warning me... :-D

Re: [Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Eric S. Raymond
Kristaps Dzonsons : > >The effort required to get this far with mdoc was extreme even for > >me. Thus I consider that effort very unlikely to be successfully > >replicated - I doubt anyone else will have the stamina required. > > Er... http://mdocml.bsd.lv? An implementation by the *designer of m

Re: [Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Eric S. Raymond
Ingo Schwarze : > Yes, .Xo/.Xc is slightly ugly, but you don't have to use it if > you don't like it. You can't tell me it's optional. It's in the corpus and doclifter has to cope with it somehow. > > The result is pure hell for anyone trying to interpret the mess with > > anything but groff it

Re: [Groff] mdoc considered harmful

2014-03-07 Thread Ingo Schwarze
Hi Eric, Eric S. Raymond wrote on Fri, Mar 07, 2014 at 04:03:49PM -0500: > Kristaps Dzonsons : >> esr wrote: >>> The effort required to get this far with mdoc was extreme even for >>> me. Thus I consider that effort very unlikely to be successfully >>> replicated - I doubt anyone else will have t

Re: [Groff] [pe...@schaffter.ca: Re: Back to the future]

2014-03-07 Thread Peter Schaffter
On Fri, Mar 07, 2014, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Keith Marshall : > > you continue to convey an impression, real or imagined, that you believe > > groff's /raison de ĂȘtre/ to be man page production, which, of course, is > > a world apart from reality -- including the reality of your typographic > > i