Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-16 Thread Doug Cutting
Niclas Hedhman wrote: I am curious (never worked in a RTC environment); Does that mean that people turn down offers of commit rights? Does it mean that less commit rights are offered? Does it mean that commit rights are offered to those that do reviews even if they don't write much code? No to

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-13 Thread Niclas Hedhman
On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Doug Cutting wrote: > Aidan Skinner wrote: >> >> I'd flip this around and look at it from the PoV of a >> not-yet-committer. RTC means everybody goes through basically the same >> process - (raise jira), hack, submit patch, patch gets reviewed, patch >> gets commit

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-13 Thread Doug Cutting
Aidan Skinner wrote: I'd flip this around and look at it from the PoV of a not-yet-committer. RTC means everybody goes through basically the same process - (raise jira), hack, submit patch, patch gets reviewed, patch gets committed regardless of whether they have a commit bit or not. +1 With RT

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-13 Thread Doug Cutting
Justin Erenkrantz wrote: As I understood Owen's "Intro to Hadoop" talk at AC, Hadoop has changed their methodology lately to CTR and found it to work far better. (Duh.) -- justin Hadoop uses RTC. Doug - To unsubscribe, e-ma

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Greg Stein
Yup. We have all had different experiences, and I certainly acknowledge it is possible to have a successful RTC model in place. The real problem is that there is always a success story for any position. "See? It works here." And there are *so* many factors that go into that success, beyond the sim

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Aidan Skinner
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of > ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on > expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is > about making a change and discuss

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:44, Matthieu Riou > wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:24 AM, ant elder wrote: > > > >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Eric Evans > wrote: > >> > On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 07:16 +, ant elder wrote: > >> >> so

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Greg Stein
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:44, Matthieu Riou wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:24 AM, ant elder wrote: > >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Eric Evans wrote: >> > On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 07:16 +, ant elder wrote: >> >> so about 6 months ago to try to help with problems they were having, >> >

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Branko Čibej
Eric Evans wrote: > Sure, but the IPMC is in a position of power, and can impose it's will > upon the project (including CTR vs. RTC), right? > I have no clue whether the IPMC can impose such a decision. But I'm very, very certain that it should not even consider trying. It's better to ask the

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:55 AM, ant elder wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM, ant elder wrote: > >> So about 40% of the committed code is coming from others and reviewed > >> by others - great - why not make some of those othe

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Eric Evans
On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 11:36 -0500, Greg Stein wrote: > > I agree with you, but tabled my protest because in practice what we > > have is working, doesn't seem to be a barrier to contribution, and > > > everyone seems happy with it (even the casual contributors). > > I wouldn't say "everyone". This

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Jonathan Ellis wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM, ant elder wrote: >> So about 40% of the committed code is coming from others and reviewed >> by others - great - why not make some of those others committers? > > It's a long tail sort of thing. > > We fol

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:36 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:32, Eric Evans wrote: > >... > > I agree with this, and as a Cassandra committer I have in the past > > protested our use of RTC. However, the current work-flow *in practice* > > is more about having someone, anyone,

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Jonathan Ellis
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:36 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:32, Eric Evans wrote: >> I agree with you, but tabled my protest because in practice what we have >> is working, doesn't seem to be a barrier to contribution, and everyone >> seems happy with it (even the casual cont

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:24 AM, ant elder wrote: > On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Eric Evans wrote: > > On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 07:16 +, ant elder wrote: > >> so about 6 months ago to try to help with problems they were having, > >> and since then 99% of the commits have been made by only t

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Jonathan Ellis
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM, ant elder wrote: > So about 40% of the committed code is coming from others and reviewed > by others - great - why not make some of those others committers? It's a long tail sort of thing. We follow the convention Johan suggested of assigning the Jira issue to t

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Greg Stein
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 11:32, Eric Evans wrote: >... > I agree with this, and as a Cassandra committer I have in the past > protested our use of RTC. However, the current work-flow *in practice* > is more about having someone, anyone, give changes a once over (making > sure they build, that tests

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Eric Evans
On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 22:16 -0500, Greg Stein wrote: > Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of > ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on > expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is > about making a change and discuss

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Eric Evans wrote: > On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 07:16 +, ant elder wrote: >> so about 6 months ago to try to help with problems they were having, >> and since then 99% of the commits have been made by only two people. > > I assume you're referring to Jonathan Ellis a

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Eric Evans
On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 07:16 +, ant elder wrote: > so about 6 months ago to try to help with problems they were having, > and since then 99% of the commits have been made by only two people. I assume you're referring to Jonathan Ellis and myself, and I'm not sure that's exactly fair. There are

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Eric Evans
On Thu, 2009-11-12 at 08:44 +0100, Justin Erenkrantz wrote: > I think part of Cassandra's problem is that they do releases directly > from trunk and don't have a 'stable' et al branch. No, this isn't (has never been) true. https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/incubator/cassandra/branches/ The cassa

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Bruce Snyder
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of > ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on > expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is > about making a change and discussi

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Paul Querna
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 7:16 PM, Greg Stein wrote: > Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of > ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on > expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is > about making a change and discussi

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Emmanuel Lecharny
Michael Wechner wrote: Ian Boston schrieb: not least because committed mistakes demand fixing by the committer and then anyone who can fix the bug. The only downside is that occasionally trunk wont build/run and if trunk is close to production that probably matters. I think another downsi

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Michael Wechner
Ian Boston schrieb: not least because committed mistakes demand fixing by the committer and then anyone who can fix the bug. The only downside is that occasionally trunk wont build/run and if trunk is close to production that probably matters. I think another downside is, that (maybe depen

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-12 Thread Ian Boston
On 12 Nov 2009, at 03:16, Greg Stein wrote: Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is about making a change and discussing it. But y

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Justin Erenkrantz
On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 4:16 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > I've participated in both styles of development. RTC is *stifling*. I > would never want to see that in any Apache community for its routine > development (branch releases are another matter). > > My opinion is that it is very unfortunate that C

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread ant elder
I agree with that. And before graduation I think it might be worth trying to get CTR used more, they do seem open this - http://markmail.org/message/i255ekzxpuesow44 ...ant On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 3:16 AM, Greg Stein wrote: > Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread ant elder
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote: > > As Martijn alluded to, I think we'd need some more context as to why and how > they use RTC. > This appears to be where it came from: http://markmail.org/message/d45dmasuwnda25wd so about 6 months ago to try to help with problems they wer

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Greg Stein
Not a "strong opinion", but I think that RTC hampers the free-flow of ideas, experimentation, evolution, and creativity. It is a damper on expressivity. You maneuver bureaucracy to get a change in. CTR is about making a change and discussing it. But you get *forward progress*. I also feel that RTC

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Bruce Snyder
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Emmanuel Lecharny wrote: > Matthieu Riou wrote: >> >> Hi guys, >> >> What's the take of other mentors and the IPMC on podlings practicing RTC? >> I'm asking because some seem to see it as a blocker for graduation whereas >> I >> see it much more as a development me

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Leo Simons wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Matthieu Riou > wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote: > >> > >> As Martijn alluded to, I think we'd need some more context as to why and > >> how they use RTC. > >> > > Yes, sorry for

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Leo Simons
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Matthieu Riou wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote: >> >> As Martijn alluded to, I think we'd need some more context as to why and >> how they use RTC. >> > Yes, sorry for the lack of details. The context is Cassandra and they're > doing RTC

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Matthieu Riou
On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 8:31 AM, Daniel Kulp wrote: > > As Martijn alluded to, I think we'd need some more context as to why and > how > they use RTC. > > Yes, sorry for the lack of details. The context is Cassandra and they're doing RTC by community choice. They all seem to agree that RTC is the

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Daniel Kulp
As Martijn alluded to, I think we'd need some more context as to why and how they use RTC. If all the reviews are done by a single person because that is what they want, THAT would be a problem. If the reviews are a community driven thing and the community thinks that's the best way for

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Emmanuel Lecharny
Matthieu Riou wrote: Hi guys, What's the take of other mentors and the IPMC on podlings practicing RTC? I'm asking because some seem to see it as a blocker for graduation whereas I see it much more as a development methodology with little community impact and therefore no real influence on gradu

Re: Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Martijn Dashorst
As long as the community is not divided on the issue whether to practice RTC vs CTR, I see no blocker for graduation. That is: as long as RTC was not installed to mitigate problems inside the community. If that is the case, the community may still be broken, with the underlying issue mopped under

Review-Then-Commit

2009-11-11 Thread Matthieu Riou
Hi guys, What's the take of other mentors and the IPMC on podlings practicing RTC? I'm asking because some seem to see it as a blocker for graduation whereas I see it much more as a development methodology with little community impact and therefore no real influence on graduation. Strong opinions