Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Mutual information turned up earlier this week in some articles about what Google AI does next, which could be read as an attempt on organization, too. https://www.zdnet.com/article/google-ponders-the-shortcomings-of-machine-learning/ this is the article that Google news pushed on me. The shortco

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Roger writes: “So mutual information between the whole and the part, the shared purpose as it were, where the residual information of the part -- modulo the mutual information with the whole -- would presumably be the 'function' of the part.” It sees incomplete. In the case of higher-order fun

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

My comment may be addressed a bit by the 2nd paper Roger posted (DGI). But my 1st reaction to your comment was an attempt to reconstruct what Rosen *might* have intended re: function and organization. I'm running with my gestalt memory, but I'll challenge it against his text later. A relation

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Nick, If your 'psychological' monism extends to a metaphysical monism, please don't hyperventilate when I suggest a fundamental dualism — Entropy and Anentropy. I am suggesting a kind of Leibniz-ian model, "from zero (chaos) and one (God) comes everything. Substituting the non-perso

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

So ... Rosen's openness to material flow, closure to operational flow, allows *both* endo- and exothermic sub-systems. But his (M,R)-systems focus on maintaining organization using energy-material harvested from the gradient, ignoring sub-systems that produce energy-material? On 10/24/18 9:20

Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

I will sign on, Nick. Tom Johnson, Professor Emeritus, San Francisco State University Tom Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h) *NM Foundation for Open Gov

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Thanks, David. Great to hear from you. Where ARE you? Are you every coming home? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesign

Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Thanks, Tom, Still trying to figure out logistics. I have written the NM-ican to find out how to submit a letter from many signers, but got no response. Do you have any experience with this? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Glen, I was trying very hard to be metaphorical and general and avoid addressing details, like the one you raise, that would require pages to discuss properly. But, I would definitely and immediately concede that Rosen, in particular, recognizes and deals with, sometimes more cleverly than othe

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Thanks, Marcus, I ordered the book. Time I revived old memory traces. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ F

Re: [FRIAM] Open Letter, draft #2

Yes, but not with multiple signatories. Sorry. Tom Johnson Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA 505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h) *NM Foundation for Open Government* *Check out

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Glen/Nick/Marcus/Dave/et alia - For reasons I can't begin to enumerate here, I have been unable to keep up with this list beyond reading/skimming every day or three and each time I formulate a response or contribution to a thread, it sits for another cycle (1-3 days) and feels stale or misbegotten

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

And BTW, the section in the paper linked on the topic of "the Modeling Relation" // /1.1.3 The modeling relation: how we perceive / // The modeling relation is based on the universally accepted belief that the world has some sort of order associated with it; it is not a hodge-podge of seemingly

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Thanks, everybody, for your responses. Most of them are way above my pay-grade, but watching you all work together is inspiring, and I always, ALWAYS, get a rich harvest of crumbs off your table. Back in old days, I did a brief visitorship at the Philadelphia Child Guidance Clinic, toying

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

I remember reading, or trying to read, Rosen's "Life Itself". For a long time it seemed like Rosen was onto something very important and exciting but, to my mind, he never even came close to delivering. The conclusion of "Life Itself" was, for me, a complete disappointment. The material presen

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

NO, NO, John. You are not too late. You were in at the beginning on this one. You remember all that palaver about modeling emergence in the 90’s? You were there. On your second point, that I have made no progress, I am afraid I have to agree. But that does not keep me from trying.

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

My opinion is probably the least credible. But here it is anyway. Rosen's achievement was just like every other theoretician's achievement. He formulated hypotheses that *may* be testable. The Mikulecky paper Steve posted states one of them fairly well: Mikulecky wrote: > The functional com

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Oh! And I forgot to mention my other favorite *vein* of possible counter examples: Hewitt's "Inconsistency Robustness". I particularly like John Woods' contribution to attempts to formalize abduction. On 10/24/18 2:49 PM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > My opinion is probably the least credible. But here it

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Yeah, Steve. Right. I just got stuck on that very diagram. Wrong, but in fascinating ways. First of all, the a priori distinction between the real and the modeling world is indefensible. If we are honest without selves, we are experience monists. All we have is our experience, and every ex

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

On 10/24/18 2:58 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > First of all, the a priori distinction between the real and the modeling > world is indefensible. As a person who *simulates* the real world for money, that's just plain offensive! 8^) Were I to go into, say, NASA or somewhere and claim that my simu

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Hi, Glen, Rushing now, so no time to answer properly. Only time to taunt you. So: What is it exactly for an experience to "pass as reality". Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/na

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

This might qualify: Bravemind: Virtual Reality Exposure Therapy http://ict.usc.edu/prototypes/pts/ Of course, you'll probably go all sophist on my and claim that the 2 experiences (of the original traumatic experience and the simulation) are separate and unique. But ... well... sophistry a

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

Glen, Interesting website ... . But the question can't be answered by pointing at something. I meant to ask the question, "What are the properties of something you would call real?" Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earth

Re: [FRIAM] On old question

On the contrary, the question can ONLY be answered by pointing at something. Your abstracted, essentialist, linguistic tendencies will fail us every time. I think I've mentioned Luc Steels' language games before. And you seem to be fond of semiotics. So why isn't the question best answered by po