misunderstanding?
Geoffrey
From: Thomas de Souza Buckup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:57:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Geoffrey,
Here are some answers t
_
> From: Porantim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey,
>
> We came here, on this list, loo
es <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:05:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Porantim wrote:
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts
juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção
ainda me perturba.
From: Porantim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikim
I agree, I have been tempted to write an essay on wikimedians, but one probably
already exists.
From: Ziko van Dijk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:29:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A
;
Geoffrey Plourde
From: Porantim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Ziko,
Maybe the problem is my very poor english and I
we will have
something to go on.
From: Aphaia <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:06:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Geoffrey,
I have been working with Lu
Porantim wrote:
> The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
> problem is deny editors to participate.
Porantim, I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. There should
never be a chapter which denies that participation of editors. I'll go
even further: the
2008/11/26 Porantim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
> problem is deny editors to participate.
>
Sounds pretty much like an allegation to me. Make it hard.
Ziko
___
foundation-l mailing li
m <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:40:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
> way.
>
Ziko,
Maybe the problem is my very poor english and I can't explain what I really
think.
There is *no* "Wikimedia organisation" in Brazil. There is no "allegation"
about nothing. There is facts about *proposed* chapter.
I suggest you to read the messas in beggining of this thread.
Exept Jimb, n
This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A
member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is
someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia
goals.
If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at leas
Porantim wrote:
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversa
and
> they
> > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> than
> > some of the European ones.
> >
> > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
ganize, there is more support for this chapter than
> some of the European ones.
>
> My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
&g
I am sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but reading the
Google-translated versions of the quoted e-mails, they seem to all come
from Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton, so in solving any misunderstanding his
opinions should be heard, and to make this discussion more constructive,
maybe we could leave
2008/11/25 Béria Lima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Geoffrey...
>
> The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> Don't be maniqueist please.
>
> The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
> the process of consensus. The problem is not just a di
er than
> some of the European ones.
>
> My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
Porantim wrote:
> Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
> way.
No, I don't think the problem is personal. I think it's a
misunderstanding, and you requested that I talk to Thomas about it. I will.
--Jimbo
___
foun
disruptive.
From: Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Luiz Augusto wrote:
> This is what we need: to stop th
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Jimbo, look, nobody here are in doubt about the honesty of this or those
person.
The discussion here is not about the people, is about the positions. Is
about the actions.
Sorry, Jimbo, but I believe, nobody here really can believe in a
TED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:40:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
way.
-- Porantim
2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTE
Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
way.
-- Porantim
2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Porantim wrote:
> > The point here is: Thomas is one of the people who deny the debate. This
> is
> > the fact.
> >
> > Of course I want Thomas close to us, fi
Porantim wrote:
> The point here is: Thomas is one of the people who deny the debate. This is
> the fact.
>
> Of course I want Thomas close to us, fighting with us, but I cant't believe
> in dictatorship.
>
> If you really want to help us, you can speak with your friend Thomas about
> those probl
Jimbo, look, nobody here are in doubt about the honesty of this or those
person.
The discussion here is not about the people, is about the positions. Is
about the actions.
Sorry, Jimbo, but I believe, nobody here really can believe in a maniqueist
discussion like that.
I don't care if Thomas is
Nathan wrote:
> The question is, if the characterization of the Wikimedia Brasil is accurate
> (i.e. comprised mainly of non-editors, hostile to editors, authoritarian to
> the extent of banning discussion of chapter composition and goals, etc.)
> what can be done? The answer may be nothing at all,
Michael Bimmler wrote:
> I would like to offer my apologies if it seemed like I was considering
> the situation in Brazil here, I by no means believe that we must
> consider what to do in Brazil!
:-)
I am confident things can be worked out in Brazil without much difficulty.
Luiz Augusto wrote:
> This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
Why?
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Agreed. Not yet existing corporate cannot be approved by anyone. It
just may say the idea was favored, and it may be sure it is being
planned, but we should not mislead our readers as if there were an
organization already.
On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 7:17 AM, Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrot
2008/11/24 Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Luiz Augusto wrote:
> First, is that wrong that a chapter is made in majority or entirety by
> non-editors ? I would tend to think it is unfortunate, but not wrong. A
> person may be part of the wikimedia mouvement without editing a lot. The
> pe
2008/11/24 Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Casey Brown wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Bence Damokos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I guess the issue is that usually organisations need to "earn" the title of
>>> non-profit (by being accepted as such by the courts/authorities), s
2008/11/24 Casey Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I know what the resolution says, it doesn't mean it makes sense. There
>> is no "Wikimedia Brasil", so the resolution is pretty meaningless. I
>> think the board ought to wait
Casey Brown wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Bence Damokos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I guess the issue is that usually organisations need to "earn" the title of
>> non-profit (by being accepted as such by the courts/authorities), so a
>> non-incorporated group of people recognised as W
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:41 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I know what the resolution says, it doesn't mean it makes sense. There
> is no "Wikimedia Brasil", so the resolution is pretty meaningless. I
> think the board ought to wait until the actual contracts are signed
> before of
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:27 PM, Bence Damokos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I guess the issue is that usually organisations need to "earn" the title of
> non-profit (by being accepted as such by the courts/authorities), so a
> non-incorporated group of people recognised as WM Brasil should not be
>
2008/11/24 Casey Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> But there is no chapter, just a proposal. The idea of a Brazilian
>> chapter has been approved, but that idea still needs to be
>> implemented. It doesn't make sense to include
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But there is no chapter, just a proposal. The idea of a Brazilian
> chapter has been approved, but that idea still needs to be
> implemented. It doesn't make sense to include it on the list of
> chapters when it doesn't exi
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 11:20 PM, Casey Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I think it is not appropriate that Wikimedia Brasil is listed (and
> > described) as a non-profit organization if it is not yet incorporated
2008/11/24 Casey Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I think it is not appropriate that Wikimedia Brasil is listed (and
>> described) as a non-profit organization if it is not yet incorporated:
>> http://wikimediafoundation.o
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:17 PM, Florence Devouard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think it is not appropriate that Wikimedia Brasil is listed (and
> described) as a non-profit organization if it is not yet incorporated:
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Local_chapters.
>
I disagree, it's a lis
Michael Bimmler wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> 5. So far, no legal entity has been created and there is no such a group
>>> of Wikimedia representatives.
>> That's an interesting point that we seemed to be missing.
>
> Yes. I somehow thou
With regards to the bylaw changes, what exactly were they?
From: Thomas de Souza Buckup <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 8:22:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Replying to three messages at the same time
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 2:22 PM, Thomas de Souza Buckup <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
>
> 3. In October a group of less than 5 people (including Beria Lima,
> Porantim and Luis Augusto) decided to make new suggestions for the text of
> the alr
Right, I should have been more explicit that I have no reason to expect that
the situation in Brasil as anywhere close to that point, I was more making
the general point of the limited direct influence the Wikimedia Foundation
has over chapters in conflict. I'm sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
"you can start the process with ChapCom again from scratch if you need
to..."
I agree whit this pharse of Thomas...
Is that whem we want... start over again... from zero. Discuss point to
point... and after all we back and re-approve the Brazilian Chapter.
Att,
Béria Lima
2008/11/24 Michael Bi
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Jimmy Wales <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Having just visited there, I can say with some confidence that
> discussion of people refusing to cease using the trademarks is wildly
> off base. The people at WMF-Brasil are not bad guys. I just spent 3
> days there. If
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 5:32 PM, Thomas Dalton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 5. So far, no legal entity has been created and there is no such a group
>> of Wikimedia representatives.
>
> That's an interesting point that we seemed to be missing.
Yes. I somehow thought that Wikimedia Brasil had
> 5. So far, no legal entity has been created and there is no such a group
> of Wikimedia representatives.
That's an interesting point that we seemed to be missing. This is all
just at the planning stage so far? I don't see that we have any
serious problem then, this dispute simply means that
I doubt that foundation-l is the right place for a community to carry
out their conflict. We have here no possibility and no legitimation to
make any decision in favor for or against one of the conflicting party.
The best way a community should resolve such problems is to talk with
each other,
Having just visited there, I can say with some confidence that
discussion of people refusing to cease using the trademarks is wildly
off base. The people at WMF-Brasil are not bad guys. I just spent 3
days there. If there is a problem, I see no obstacles to working it
out.
I will be seeing
Hello all,
Good to hear your thoughts. I'll share with you how I see what is going on
and how we could tackle the issues mentioned on the previous messages.
First, let me summarize below the Brazilian Chapter's history, for those
unaware of it:
1. From April to August 2008 the bylaws have bee
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The question is, if the characterization of the Wikimedia Brasil is accurate
> (i.e. comprised mainly of non-editors, hostile to editors, authoritarian to
> the extent of banning discussion of chapter composition and goals, etc.)
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:40 PM, David Gerard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2008/11/24 Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Whether something can be done from afar or not... Beria, Luiz and Porantim
>> are entitled to have the discussion focus at least initially on the specific
>> problem they point out
2008/11/24 Nathan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Whether something can be done from afar or not... Beria, Luiz and Porantim
> are entitled to have the discussion focus at least initially on the specific
> problem they point out. I suspect that there is very little that can be done
> - the Foundation, and
The last few posts are discussing the operation of ChapCom, and the
relationship generally between chapters and the WMF. Valuable discussions
(although, in a sense, separate) but seemingly not what the initial e-mails
were requesting.
The question is, if the characterization of the Wikimedia Brasi
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 8:29 AM, Bence Damokos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I believe under the Chapters Agreement the WMF and the chapters have to
> notify each other if there are substantial changes planned in their bylaws,
> but not of all changes [in my interpretation].
>
> "7.2. The Chapter sh
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 2:29 PM, Bence Damokos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I believe under the Chapters Agreement the WMF and the chapters have to
> notify each other if there are substantial changes planned in their bylaws,
> but not of all changes [in my interpretation].
>
> "7.2. The Chapter
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Béria Lima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Your problem (mine and of the boys) is NOT that have non wikimedians in
> brazilian chapter. Is because that non wikimedians hostilize every
> wikimedian and don't permite anyone discussion... every is taboo.
The problem is t
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:59 PM, Michael Bimmler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Béria Lima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Someone said for we change the bylaws to protect Wikimedia Brasil. We try
> > that, but every time when we tried... We have been silenced with
> Your problem (mine and of the boys) is NOT that have non wikimedians in
> brazilian chapter. Is because that non wikimedians hostilize every
> wikimedian and don't permite anyone discussion... every is taboo.
What kind of organisation is Wikimedia Brazil? Do members not have
legal rights? The wa
On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Béria Lima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Someone said for we change the bylaws to protect Wikimedia Brasil. We try
> that, but every time when we tried... We have been silenced with the
> argument: "The Wikimedia approved the bylaws of the way that is"
>
Let me jus
I believe that my English is worse than I imagined... because nobody
understands what I said. I'll try to explain...
Your problem (mine and of the boys) is NOT that have non wikimedians in
brazilian chapter. Is because that non wikimedians hostilize every
wikimedian and don't permite anyone discus
2008/11/24 Geoffrey Plourde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I personally believe that no one should be marginalized in making this
> chapter a reality. If non Wikimedians are dedicated enough to >assist then
> they should be welcomed as brothers and sisters. The reports of
> marginalization do disturb me
confio que muitas delas não estão Wikimedians
sincero no seu desejo.
Atenciosamente;
Geoffrey Plourde
From: Béria Lima <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:45:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A
pítulo brasileiro da Wikimedia. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2008 5:30:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
Regarding the subject of Brazil's local chapter, I would like to say a
few words.
I believe that the local chapter should be compr
Luiz Augusto wrote:
> I will try whit my poor enghish report a problem that are in discuss in
> mailling list of the brazilian chapter[1]. In the end of this text, are the
> original text in portuguese, for try to minimalize the comunicacion
> mistakes.
Hello,
Thank you for the feedback. I can no
Luiz Augusto wrote:
> The same group of no-wikimedians managed to organize an event with the
> participation of Jimmy Wales[6]. I imagine that Jimmy think that the event
> is realize by wikimedians, therefore, before proceeding, let me make it
> clear: people who organized that event never particip
The problem Geoffrey, is that the non wikimedians are the "owers" of the
brazilian chapter. The opinion and ideias od the wikimedians are ignorate
and the wikimedians are hostilized[1].
I one of the people that the Luiz said when tell that the wikimedians help
the non wikimedians to be welcome. Bu
Regarding the subject of Brazil's local chapter, I would like to say a
few words.
I believe that the local chapter should be comprised of more than only
Wikimedians, after all, Wikimedia is much more than only Wikipedia. On
the other hand, since the local chapter's approval by the Chapter
Committe
This is a tricky situation. I personally don't see a problem with non
wikimedians helping out as long as they are working in accordance with the
mission statement and are willing to work with Wikimedians.
Sincerely;
Geoffrey Plourde
Desculpem
a má tradução, eu não falam Português. Esta é uma
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