Re: [Foundation-l] Pre-wikis vs. maturing Wikipedia: taking away dedicated editors?

2012-03-07 Thread teun spaans
n't mind too much about notability - if the stuff seems relevant enough for a specialized paper encyclopedia, i feel it's worth including it in a wikipedia. ''Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge

Re: [Foundation-l] News from Germany: White Bags and thinking about a fork

2011-10-23 Thread teun spaans
I completely agree :) On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Nikola Smolenski wrote: > On Sat, 2011-10-22 at 21:16 +0100, David Gerard wrote: > > "Both the opinion poll itself and its proposal were accepted. In > > contrary to the decision of the Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia > > Foundation, pers

Re: [Foundation-l] Given that we have won, can we turn Italian Wikipedia back on now?

2011-10-06 Thread teun spaans
As I understand, the change has only been proposed. Possibly another interesting issue will develop: the italian wiki was discontinued by a short vote or poll. I suppose the most democratric way to terminate it would be another vote or poll. How are they gonna have that poll if they locked themsel

Re: [Foundation-l] Blackout at Italian Wikipedia

2011-10-04 Thread teun spaans
Isn't this premature? As I understand, the law is still being discussed, not yet in affect. On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Theo10011 wrote: > For those not following, Italian Wikipedia went into lockdown a while ago. > All content and pages direct to the notice. > > http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki

Re: [Foundation-l] Amicus Brief Filed in Golan v. Holder: Fighting for the Public Domain

2011-06-24 Thread teun spaans
too general. And a count of PD-old gives just 17K. kind regards, Teun Spaans On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Ryan Kaldari wrote: > It's based on the template transclusion count here: > > http://toolserver.org/~jarry/templatecount/index.php?lang=commons&name=Template%3APD-Layou

Re: [Foundation-l] Amicus Brief Filed in Golan v. Holder: Fighting for the Public Domain

2011-06-23 Thread teun spaans
The number of 3 million surpises me. Common hosts about 10 million items. Are you certain this amount is approximately correct? On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 8:40 PM, Geoff Brigham wrote: > Yesterday, the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) filed an amicus > ("friends of the court") brief in Golan

Re: [Foundation-l] EFF & Bitcoins

2011-06-23 Thread teun spaans
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:18 AM, Alec Conroy wrote: > On Bitcoin-- we (and the web in general) desperately need a > zero-overhead micropayment system of some kind. > Both wikimedia and the web could indeed use a free micropayment system very well. It doesn' t need to be bitcoin as a currency,

Re: [Foundation-l] Request: WMF commitment as a long term cultural archive?

2011-06-02 Thread teun spaans
the NYT uses an image from commons by inline linking, then we could indeed invalidate their historical research by deleting that image if it contains a copyright violation. CV are the main reason for deletion. Other reasons include bad quality, and duplicate images. Teun Spaans Everybody knew it was

Re: [Foundation-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] CTO Leaving Wikimedia Foundation end of July

2011-06-02 Thread teun spaans
Danese, sorry to see you go. Though not always visible, you have done a lot :) Thank you for your efforts! Teun Spaans Everybody knew it was impossible, until someone turned up who didnt know that. On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:32 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > This is a sad day. &g

Re: [Foundation-l] CentralNotice use

2011-05-20 Thread teun spaans
timal way to communicate that message. An email or article in the signpost might be a much more cost effective way than a banner. kind regards, Teun Spaans On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:52 AM, church.of.emacs.ml wrote: > Hi all, > > Do we have any guidelines limiting the use of Cen

Re: [Foundation-l] BNR: "Less writers on wikipedia due to agression" (dutch)

2011-03-30 Thread teun spaans
And of course the widely read sensation newspaper is copying the message widely: http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/9409794/__Minder_schrijvers_Wikipedia__.html?p=24,2 Their readers often react, usually without much feeling for nuance. On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:57 PM, Martijn Hoekstra < martijnho

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia, The Book

2011-03-30 Thread teun spaans
If i interpret the link correctly, these are only featured articles? 2011/3/30 David Richfield > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:34 PM, Fred Bauder > wrote: > > http://www.rob-matthews.com/index.php?/project/wikipedia/ > > > > Rob, > > > > May I direct your attention to: > > > > https://secure.wikime

Re: [Foundation-l] BNR: "Less writers on wikipedia due to agression" (dutch)

2011-03-30 Thread teun spaans
I can confirm what Gerard says: they are influential in the financial and management sector. I occasionally listen to them while driving. The article mentions a german research. At the moment there is one reaction confirming it from personal experience. On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Austin Hai

Re: [Foundation-l] Message to community about community decline

2011-03-29 Thread teun spaans
Milos, Fully agree with your remark about the WYSIWYG editor! On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 6:57 AM, Milos Rancic wrote: ... > * We need, for example, WYSIWYG editor. Some more important features, > too. And it is not expensive. > * In the world where the funniest thing is to send an email, editing >

Re: [Foundation-l] Message to community about community decline

2011-03-29 Thread teun spaans
eterzell wrote: > On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 2:14 AM, teun spaans > wrote: > > > Quote:Many volunteers don't have a lot to write. > > This sounds like an opinion, not like a fact. Even on English wikipedia, > we > > still have about two hundred thousand plant speci

Re: [Foundation-l] Message to community about community decline

2011-03-29 Thread teun spaans
agree with some of your remarks about motivation. One way to motivate people might be to provide more information on the process that google maps uses to locate wikipedia artciles to its maps. It's much nicer if lots of people actually read 'your' article. Teun Spaans On Tue, Mar 2

Re: [Foundation-l] Access to academic journals (was Re: Remarks on Wikimedia's fundraiser)

2011-03-09 Thread teun spaans
to pay a bit more and have their publciatiuons open access. That sounds like an interesting development to me. Teun Spaans On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Melissa Hagemann wrote: > On Wed, 9 Mar 2011, John Vandenberg wrote: > > > > And if there is interest in advocating on th

Re: [Foundation-l] [Announce] Brion Vibber to rejoin Wikimedia Foundation

2011-03-07 Thread teun spaans
Welcome back, Brion! Imho there is no one better suited forthe job than you! Teun On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:27 AM, Jay Walsh wrote: > Sending on behalf of Danese... > > > Hello, > > > > Yes, the rumors are true! Today I am pleased to announce that after more > than a year away, Brion Vibber wi

Re: [Foundation-l] Friendliness (was: Missing Wikipedians: An Essay)

2011-02-23 Thread teun spaans
"You have just made your 100th edit: congratulations." That would be good bot to run: encourage people! Another idea: A simple message to make a compliment on people who make their first 3 posts which are not reverted after a day. make it aimed at anonymous contributors, and inviting them to regist

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia Comes of Age

2011-01-08 Thread teun spaans
A courageous point of view. With arguments. On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 9:56 PM, Fred Bauder wrote: > http://chronicle.com/article/article-content/125899/ > > January 7, 2011 > Wikipedia Comes of Age > By Casper Grathwohl > > Casper Grathwohl is vice president and publisher of digital and reference >

Re: [Foundation-l] Template Overkill

2010-12-29 Thread teun spaans
such as blogger supports, we can have a best of both worlds: Newbies have an easy start, while old hands can still have all the templates the want. Teun Spaans On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 5:59 AM, Birgitte SB wrote: > What project are you speaking of? At en.WS the entire navigation > structu

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikimedia / Wikipedia Statistics

2010-12-16 Thread teun spaans
The stats on http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesArticlesNewPerDay.htm are actual till Jun 2009 The stats on http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/Sitemap.htm are up to date till sep 2010. Eriks explanation explains the situation for not being updated since sep 2010, not for those since june 2009. On Th

Re: [Foundation-l] Old Wikipedia backups discovered

2010-12-14 Thread teun spaans
. teun spaans On Tue, Dec 14, 2010 at 4:54 PM, Tim Starling wrote: > I was looking through some old files in our SourceForge project. I > opened a file called wiki.tar.gz, and inside were three complete > backups of the text of Wikipedia, from February, March and August 2001! &g

Re: [Foundation-l] Paypal removal?

2010-12-10 Thread teun spaans
this means for freedom and justice i leave to your own conclusions. Should not any action be directed to all three or four organizations? But i doubt anything is achieved by denying ourselves gifts. I wish you joy and happiness, teun spaans On Sat, Dec 11, 2010 at 6:31 AM, Robert Tice wrote

Re: [Foundation-l] Should we offer to host citizendium?

2010-11-12 Thread teun spaans
that wants to support them, or helping to find them a sponsor. kind regards teun spaans On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 8:56 AM, geni wrote: > Should we offer to host citizendium? > > Okey get over the instinctive reaction. > > ==The background== > Those who have read this week's

Re: [Foundation-l] This is tolerated on the Wikimedia Foundation mailing list?

2010-10-14 Thread teun spaans
PA are simply NOT DONE. On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 6:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > What is unacceptable, that Greg is a dick or that he is said to be a dick? > > It takes a fair amount of doing to get banned on two projects and to be put > on moderation on mailing lists. He achieved all th

Re: [Foundation-l] Liu Xiaobo

2010-10-11 Thread teun spaans
That word had occured to me, but I didnt dare to mention it in this discussion as i had been "warned" here in the past about my usage of that word here, and didnt want to be put on moderation list myself. On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Florence Devouard wrote: > Censorship ! > > :) > > On 10/9/

Re: [Foundation-l] Has Wikipedia changed since 2005?

2010-10-04 Thread teun spaans
till there. teun spaans On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 9:14 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 9/20/2010 12:02:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > peter.dam...@btinternet.com writes: > > >> In my experience >> the problem of humanities in Wikipedia is that the methods and tra

Re: [Foundation-l] Pending Changes

2010-09-30 Thread teun spaans
If PC is what the german wiki has been using for some time, i think i support its usage. Allthough it wont stop vandalism, it expect it does greatly reduce it, allowing the volunteers to spend their time in a more useful way. Imho it is working pretty well on the german wiki. The first time i felt

Re: [Foundation-l] A proposal of partnership between Wikimedia Foundation and Internet Archive

2010-08-24 Thread teun spaans
This looks like a solid organization. Solid in the sense that it wont go suddenly offline. Such links may be valuable for: - article references to sources, in case the source goes offline - article references to sources, in case thesource changes its content - media copies when the source changes

Re: [Foundation-l] Discussion Questions for Potentially-Objectionable Content

2010-07-22 Thread teun spaans
ideas? kind regards, Teun Spaans On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 9:10 PM, Excirial wrote: > *You have my sympathy to - no matter what the outcome is, some if not many > people will label it censorship, directly or indirectly. "We dont censor" > has been an standard argument so far

Re: [Foundation-l] Discussion Questions for Potentially-Objectionable Content

2010-07-22 Thread teun spaans
ant. kind regards Teun Spaans ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Re: [Foundation-l] Boycott in a...@wiki

2010-07-17 Thread teun spaans
The community of each wiki can decide which illustrations are best for a certain article, true. Using foundation resources (banner, cpu, bandwidth) to campaign against other foundation projects should be avoided. Protest against decisions of WMF is one thing, lobbying against a whole WMF project i

Re: [Foundation-l] Community, collaboration, and cognitive biases

2010-06-09 Thread teun spaans
IBMs decision to get rid of all internal communication sounds to me as a very good practice for us. It also fits in well with the wikipedia culture of consensus in decision making. Following this comm. strategy involves the large volunteer community, and taps on the vast knowledge of our community

Re: [Foundation-l] The High Priests of Wikipedia

2010-06-08 Thread teun spaans
The Catholic church is not identical to the Roman Catholic church, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_%28disambiguation%29 live long and prosper, Teun Spaans On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > The Catholic church is not the same as the Vatican.

Re: [Foundation-l] hiding interlanguage links by default is a Bad Idea, part 2

2010-06-04 Thread teun spaans
A minimalist design is a good goal to strive for. As many people do mot use them, it may be a good cleanup of the interface. Howver, for its afficionados the developers might create an option in the user preferences to show all interwiki links directly instead of hiding them. Personally I find them

Re: [Foundation-l] Potential ICRA labels for Wikipedia

2010-05-10 Thread teun spaans
Dear Derk-jan, As for 1), I think youtube can be compared in populairity and size with wikipedia, and in videos surpasses commons. Youtube enables its visitors to tag videos as adult. see for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA22WSVlCZ4 kind regards, Teun Spaans On Sun, May 9, 2010 at

Re: [Foundation-l] Reflections on the recent debates

2010-05-08 Thread teun spaans
Adam, could you please continue existing discussions instead of creating new ones again and again? kind regards teun spaans On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Adam Cuerden wrote: > (Sorry, ignore the last two sentences - they're left over from a previous > draft) > > On Sat,

Re: [Foundation-l] The Fox Article

2010-05-07 Thread teun spaans
Would it stand any chance to file against Foxnews for slaunder? It seems they are also actively approaching organizations who donated support to wikimedia. teun On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Techman224 wrote: > It seems like Fox News can't get enough. Fox News has a history of being > the oppo

Re: [Foundation-l] MMORPG and Wikimedia

2010-05-07 Thread teun spaans
Gerard, this statement surprises me. Why was the foundation involved in the localization of Freecol, a game with little or no historic information (compared with other historic games such as europa universalis)? kind regards, Teun On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, >

Re: [Foundation-l] clicking on links

2010-04-22 Thread teun spaans
t;, and to make wikipedia as useful as possible, i believe we should learn about their behaviour on wikipedia. live long and prosper teun spaans On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 9:20 PM, Thomas Dalton wrote: > http://stats.wikimedia.org/wikimedia/squids/SquidReportOrigins.htm > > Well, if I&

Re: [Foundation-l] How to reply to a mailing list thread

2010-03-31 Thread teun spaans
On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 12:41 AM, MZMcBride wrote: > >>Hello -- > > >>Some of the people posting to this mailing list don't seem to understand > how > to write a decent, readable reply to a mailing list thread. Yes, but the opinion on what makes a readable reply may differ from person to person

Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Please HELP save Wikipedia history ! (urgent)

2010-02-22 Thread teun spaans
? Perhaps a template with the contest info might be useful. One way or the other, it would be a good thing if the copyright status could be determined: does the foundation have all rights? Do the creators still have all rights reserved? teun spaans On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 8:19 PM, geni wrote: > On

Re: [Foundation-l] Where do our readers come from?

2010-01-13 Thread teun spaans
Hi Erik, thank you. Very nice. One suggestion: for trends, i would expect a bar indicating upward or downward trend, not a percentage bar. live long and prosper teun On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Erik Zachte wrote: > Today I released 4 new reports, which all focus on: > > Where do our reader

Re: [Foundation-l] Minors and sexual explicit stuff

2009-11-17 Thread teun spaans
nsible for what minors during their vi\olunteer acticvities for wikimedia do and see. Viewn as such, it might indeed be a responsibility for the foundation, and not for an individual wiki. i wish you health and happiness, teun spaans On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Andrew Garrett wrote: > >

Re: [Foundation-l] Dumb survey about Commons

2009-10-26 Thread teun spaans
As an example, let's have a look at the first two questions: 1) Do you use Wikimedia Commons at all? Choose one of the following answers * Yes, regularly * Yes, sometimes * No Criticism: not exact. What is "regularly"? Once a day? Once a week? Once a month? 5% of all wiki edits? 25% o

Re: [Foundation-l] Dumb survey about Commons

2009-10-26 Thread teun spaans
I regard Erik highly for his skills in analyzing data which is already present. I am completely confident he can do some thought provoking analysis. Unfortunately, the skills required for putting a good questionare together are different from those on analyzing the data. The remarks I have seen s

Re: [Foundation-l] Announce: Brion moving to StatusNet

2009-09-28 Thread teun spaans
Brion, congratulations on your new job, and you sound excited and happy with it, so that is good :-) But I must admit that I am sorry to see you go - your commitment to wikimedia has always been over 100%, if such a thing is possible, and your personality has always been a pleasure to work with.

Re: [Foundation-l] It's not article count, it's editors

2009-09-24 Thread teun spaans
There are a lot of metrics which could be defined, and each has its own merits: * number of articles: an indication of the amount of subjects covered, and for "completeness" of the topics covered. More articles will probably draw more visitors. * number of participants: probably an indication of po

Re: [Foundation-l] Projekt: OpenCritics (let's free subjective content, too!!)

2009-08-29 Thread teun spaans
people who have opinions to voice on politics, religion, etc. kind regards, teun spaans On Sat, Aug 29, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Georg von Zimmermann < g.v.zimmerm...@evelope.de> wrote: > Dear “Wikipedians”, > > please allow us to introduce a project we have been working on for >

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikispecies

2009-08-26 Thread teun spaans
volunteers without substantial support from the scientific community. For these reasons I would support a closure vote at meta. kind regards, teun spaans On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Klaus Graf wrote: > I cannot understand why WMF is unable to terminate Wikispecies which > is a zero quality p

Re: [Foundation-l] Article: Public Domain Art in an Age of Easier Mechanical Reproducibility (Sage Ross)

2009-07-13 Thread teun spaans
"the fact of the matter is that it is not the author that benefits from copyright" unfounded and untrue. I wish you health and true happiness. teun On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 5:55 PM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > I had a read of the first one. While it is nice that there is an > understanding t

Re: [Foundation-l] Issues about Copyright

2009-06-25 Thread teun spaans
may be other laws to consider. For example, if the publication if Hitlers Mein kampf is forbidden, I will not upload that text to wikibooks. I will leave that to someone else. i wish you well, teun spaans On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 5:38 AM, Jimmy Xu wrote: > Hello all, > These days at the V

Re: [Foundation-l] Wikipedia tracks user behaviour via third party companies #2

2009-06-06 Thread teun spaans
I don't think that "any random admin on one of the projects should be able to insert a web bug into Common.js" is what he suggests. The Hungarian situation seems to have been in place with support of the hungarian community, at least at start. Frankly, I'd rather see private sensitive data on an

Re: [Foundation-l] South Korean Government's regulations on real name for Internet

2009-04-08 Thread teun spaans
"oncurrently April 1 is when the amendment to South Korea’s Act on the Promotion of Information and Communications Network Utilization and User Protection will go into effect". That date smells ;-) On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 6:53 AM, RYU Cheol wrote: > According to this post, > > http://briandeutsch

Re: [Foundation-l] dumps

2009-02-24 Thread teun spaans
on the validity of the articles. teun spaans On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Newyorkbrad (Wikipedia) < newyorkb...@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not familiar with the details of the data dump process, so I can't > comment on whether it's broken or not. > > However, on

Re: [Foundation-l] Agreement between WMF and O'Reilly Media about Wikipedia: The Missing Manual on Wikipedia?

2009-01-28 Thread teun spaans
Hi Gerard, pls remain polite and dont call names. teun On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 11:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > Hoi, > You are out of your mind. The author of the book, a respected Wikipedian, > can relicense it to anything he likes. > Thanks, > GerardM > > 2009/1/28 geni > > > 2009/1/

Re: [Foundation-l] Britannica became free

2008-12-22 Thread teun spaans
"but possibly illegal" you can omit the word "possibly". I dont see a copy left license at their site. On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Amir E. Aharoni wrote: > 2008/12/22 Amir E. Aharoni : > > 2008/12/22 Milos Rancic : > > And Britannica has this totally weird feature - the article loads > > its

Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Commons-l] Making Wikimedia Commons less frightening

2008-12-13 Thread teun spaans
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Platonides wrote: > teun spaans wrote: > > Many times it works well. > > But the procedures also irregularly goes amiss. > > > > I also received deletion messages of a pic i had uploaded with a correct > > license. Some wiki

Re: [Foundation-l] and what if...

2008-12-12 Thread teun spaans
iness, teun spaans ___ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Commons-l] Making Wikimedia Commons less frightening

2008-12-09 Thread teun spaans
Many times it works well. But the procedures also irregularly goes amiss. I also received deletion messages of a pic i had uploaded with a correct license. Some wikimedian had accidently removed the license, making a bot come along and warn me. By pure coincidence i happened to come along at commo

Re: [Foundation-l] Making Wikimedia Commons less frightening

2008-12-08 Thread teun spaans
e, such as cities, panoramas, and even some people pix. I wish you health and happiness, Teun Spaans On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 11:31 PM, Lars Aronsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Geoffrey Plourde wrote: > > > That might be a hell of a incentive to change. Before we talk > >

Re: [Foundation-l] Site notice suggestion needed.

2008-12-06 Thread teun spaans
make it a random selection of 2 items from everything that has been suggested On Sat, Dec 6, 2008 at 3:01 AM, Chad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 8:47 PM, Kul Takanao Wadhwa <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >wrote: > > > McDonalds: serves 75 million people a month > > Wikipedia: 275 mill

Re: [Foundation-l] 80% of our projects are failing

2008-12-03 Thread teun spaans
I agree that creating an article should be much easier. Creating a wysiwyg editor would greatly facilitate that. It would also help if we promoted a culture where people are invited to create new articles. Many hard code wikipedians seem to have adopted the attitude that red links are ugly - so re

Re: [Foundation-l] EN Wikipedia Editing Statistics

2008-11-30 Thread teun spaans
It is good to hear that en: is replicated. I assume this also applies to commons? Still, it might be a good idea to think about a redesign of the dump process. On Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 4:09 AM, Robert Rohde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 6:16 PM, Neil Harris <[EMAIL PROTECT

Re: [Foundation-l] European Commission Green Paper - Copyright in the Knowledge Economy

2008-11-14 Thread teun spaans
Agree. And perhaps other organizations working with copy left licenses could be informed? On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 4:20 PM, Teofilo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The European Commission published in July a "Green Paper - Copyright > in the Knowledge Economy" (1) . > > In §3.4. They talk about th