Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Consciousness is the substance upon which evolution acts in the first place. On Saturday, 15 March 2025 at 16:09:35 UTC+2 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/15/2025 6:05 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it'

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Brain! Brain! Brain! AI! AI! AI! So excitd!!! On Monday, 10 March 2025 at 08:28:01 UTC+2 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 12:17:21 PM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 9:42 AM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *>> Thanks to very recent developments I now know of two w

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 8:10 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> But Alan, if religious mystics are unable to even dream of something in > their philosophy then why the hell do they write millions of words about > something they know nothing about. And why the hell should anybody bother > to read it? * >

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 8:09:52 AM UTC-7 Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consciousness and computability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUfMZ2dts8 Dr. Penrose; What you intuit exists, and seek, is called in Tibetan Buddhism "The C

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 8:42 PM Brent Meeker wrote: *>> I understand the motivation of a modern large language model about as >> well as I understand the motivation of one of my fellow human beings. I'm >> sure there have been times when you saw somebody do something very strange >> so you asked

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

AI! AI! AI! AHHH! THE ORGASM WAS THROUGH THE ROOF! On Saturday, 15 March 2025 at 14:04:47 UTC+2 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 5:11:42 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:20 AM Brent Meeker wrote: > > *>> I can't conclude a person is not intelligent and

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/15/2025 4:11 AM, John Clark wrote: > /Then we're in agreement that consciousness in not just a spandrel,/ *No because an Evolutionary Spandrel is a trait that was not selected for by Natural Selection but is the inevitable byproduct of something that was * So you are not convin

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/15/2025 6:05 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work with; it can prove that something is intelligent * */> The Turing test can establish if something is i

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 5:11:42 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:20 AM Brent Meeker wrote: *>> I can't conclude a person is not intelligent and conscious just because I don't know his motivations, I can't always explain, even to myself, why I did what I did other t

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

AII! On Saturday, 15 March 2025 at 15:06:35 UTC+2 John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work >> with; it can prove that something is intelligent * >> >> >> *> The Turing test can est

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 8:04 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> The Turing Test is an imperfect tool but it's all we've got to work > with; it can prove that something is intelligent * > > > *> The Turing test can establish if something is indistinguishable from > being human, and hence intelligent, but

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 15, 2025 at 6:24:41 AM UTC-6 Cosmin Visan wrote: AI! AI! AI! AHHH! THE ORGASM WAS THROUGH THE ROOF! When will you cease being a schmuck? Don't you realize that you have zero value added here, and fit the profile of a troll? AG On Saturday, 15 March 2025 at 14:04:47 UTC+2

Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 15, 2025 at 1:20 AM Brent Meeker wrote: *>> I can't conclude a person is not intelligent and conscious just because >> I don't know his motivations, I can't always explain, even to myself, why I >> did what I did other than "I just wanted to" and yet I know for a fact that >> I am con

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/14/2025 4:47 AM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2025 at 8:42 PM Brent Meeker wrote: *>> I understand the motivation of a modern large language modelabout as well as I understand the motivation of one of my fellow human beings. I'm sure there have been times w

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/13/2025 6:02 AM, John Clark wrote: /> You claim to know they are intelligent by their response.  But you wouldn't say that if the response didn't match the motivation./ *I understand the motivation of a modern large language modelabout as well as I understand the motivation of

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Wed, Mar 12, 2025 at 11:10 PM Brent Meeker wrote: > *>> Responsive? That's a test for intelligent behavior not consciousness.* > > *> No it's not. If you shine a light in his eye and his pupil contracts > that's a response. If you ask who he voted for and he says, "Trump" that's > a respon

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/12/2025 4:49 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 5:20 PM Brent Meeker wrote: />>> I can certainly see the difference between conscious and unconscious./ *>> No you cannot!* /> Sure I can.  If he's breathing and got a heartbeat but un

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 5:20 PM Brent Meeker wrote: *>>> I can certainly see the difference between conscious and unconscious.* >> >> > *>> No you cannot!* > > > *> Sure I can. If he's breathing and got a heartbeat but unresponsive, > he's unconscious. If he's breathing and got a heartbeat and r

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/11/2025 5:28 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 1:54 AM Brent Meeker wrote: *>>2) Natural selection can see intelligent behavior but it can't see consciousness.* /> That's questionable./ *I don't think there is anything we can be more sure about than 

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 10:03 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> Maybe "definitions" is the wrong way to look at the problem. It's really > the unsolved mind-body problem. How does chemistry give rise to > consciousness? * *Regarding that I have five points. * *1) In 1936 Alan Turing showed us how iner

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 2:28 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> without a definition of consciousness, I see no basis for claiming > either is conscious.* *I have 4 questions for you: * *1) Why do you think definitions are better than examples? * *2) Where do you think lexicographers obtained the know

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 9:13:21 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 10:03 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> Maybe "definitions" is the wrong way to look at the problem. It's really the unsolved mind-body problem. How does chemistry give rise to consciousness? * *Regarding that

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Children debating the most obvious thing possible, lol. On Tuesday, 11 March 2025 at 14:29:36 UTC+2 John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 1:54 AM Brent Meeker wrote: > > *>>2) Natural selection can see intelligent behavior but it can't see >>> consciousness.* >> >> >> * > That's questiona

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 6:43:21 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 2:28 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> without a definition of consciousness, I see no basis for claiming either is conscious.* *I have 4 questions for you: * *1) Why do you think definitions are better than ex

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Tue, Mar 11, 2025 at 1:54 AM Brent Meeker wrote: *>>2) Natural selection can see intelligent behavior but it can't see >> consciousness.* > > > * > That's questionable.* *I don't think there is anything we can be more sure about than natural selection can't see consciousness. And you can't s

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/10/2025 8:12 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 10:03 AM Alan Grayson wrote: /> Maybe "definitions" is the wrong way to look at the problem. It's really the unsolved mind-body problem. How does chemistry give rise to consciousness? / *Regarding that I have five

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) Le lun. 10 mars 2025, 15:03, Alan Grayson a écrit : > > > On Monday, March 10, 2025 at 6:43:21 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 2:28 AM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *> without a definition of c

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 12:17:21 PM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 9:42 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> Thanks to very recent developments I now know of two ways consciousness can come to exist:* *1) Through random mutation and natural selection, which produces intelligence, w

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/9/2025 11:16 AM, John Clark wrote: *Yep,but I might add that modern AI's can pass the Turing Test with a considerably higher score than you can, so if they are not conscious then I would have to conclude that you are not either. ** I really wish you would answer a question that I posed i

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 9:42 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> Thanks to very recent developments I now know of two ways consciousness > can come to exist:* > *1) Through random mutation and natural selection, which produces > intelligence, which produces consciousness, although that process is very > sl

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 6:13:26 AM UTC-6 Cosmin Visan wrote: Magic will happen! We will simulate electricity and we will get free energy! On Sunday, 9 March 2025 at 14:02:22 UTC+2 John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 12:51 AM Alan Grayson wrote: * Recent events have proven that c

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sunday, March 9, 2025 at 6:02:22 AM UTC-6 John Clark wrote: On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 12:51 AM Alan Grayson wrote: * Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn inert matter into a mind. Meanw

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Magic will happen! We will simulate electricity and we will get free energy! On Sunday, 9 March 2025 at 14:02:22 UTC+2 John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 12:51 AM Alan Grayson wrote: > > * Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out >> the relationship betwee

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sun, Mar 9, 2025 at 12:51 AM Alan Grayson wrote: * Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out > the relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn > inert matter into a mind. Meanwhile Hindu gurus and Yoga adepts are doing > the exact same thin

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

AI! AI! AI! I masturbate AI! AI! AI! AI! On Sunday, 9 March 2025 at 07:51:14 UTC+2 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 5:27 PM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *>> Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 5:27 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn inert matter into a mind. Meanwh

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:31 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *> When you figure out the relationship of mind and matter, be sure to let > us know. AG* > *Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn inert matter

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

@Clark. Actually, women are causing the most misery, given their inability to love and given their sexual obsession with Chad. On Saturday, 8 March 2025 at 22:55:52 UTC+2 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 1:41:55 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:33 PM Ala

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:28:12 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 12:44:25 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: Have you not heard of anesthetics? *I've been administered anesthe

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 4:03:01 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 5:27 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn inert matter into a mind. Meanwh

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 5:27 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the > relationship between mind and matter well enough to be able to turn > inert matter into a mind. Meanwhile Hindu gurus and Yoga adepts are doing > the exact same thing t

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:46:11 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:31 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *> When you figure out the relationship of mind and matter, be sure to let us know. AG* *Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Who needs pills ? Who needs pills ? 3 for 1$! On Saturday, 8 March 2025 at 23:59:33 UTC+2 Alan Grayson wrote: > On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:46:11 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:31 PM Alan Grayson wrote: > > *> When you figure out the relationship of mind and matter,

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:46:11 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:31 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *> When you figure out the relationship of mind and matter, be sure to let us know. AG* *Recent events have proven that computer scientists have figured out the relationship

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 4:38 PM Brent Meeker wrote: > * >Women you know are sexually obsessed with a small landlocked country in > Africa? Maybe they tell you that just to brush you off.* > *Damn, I wish I'd said that! * * John K ClarkSee what's on my new list at Extropolis

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:28:12 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 12:44:25 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: Have you not heard of anesthetics? *I've been administered anesthe

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/8/2025 1:33 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 2:28:12 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 12:44:25 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote:

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

Women you know are sexually obsessed with a small landlocked country in Africa?  Maybe they tell you that just to brush you off. On 3/8/2025 1:10 PM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: @Clark. Actually, women are causing the most misery, given their inability to love and given their sexu

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/8/2025 12:31 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 12:44:25 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: Have you not heard of anesthetics? *I've been administered anesthetics several times. Main effect; no experience o

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 1:41:55 PM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:33 PM Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 1:16:56 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 5:52 AM, John Clark wrote: *>>>Help humanity?! Hundreds of millions of people have been tortured

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 3:33 PM Alan Grayson wrote: On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 1:16:56 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> On 3/8/2025 5:52 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >>> *>>>Help humanity?! Hundreds of millions of people have been tortured >>> and slaughtered because Protestants and Catholics w

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 1:16:56 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 5:52 AM, John Clark wrote: Help humanity?! Hundreds of millions of people have been tortured and slaughtered because Protestants and Catholics want to kill each other, Hindus and Buddhists want to kill each other

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 12:44:25 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: Have you not heard of anesthetics? *I've been administered anesthetics several times. Main effect; no experience of time. No White Light experience, not even dreams. AG* And no co

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/8/2025 5:52 AM, John Clark wrote: Help humanity?! Hundreds of millions of people have been tortured and slaughtered because Protestants and Catholics want to kill each other, Hindus and Buddhists want to kill each other, Christians and Muslims want to kill each other and Sunni Muslims an

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/8/2025 12:23 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: Have you not heard of anesthetics? *I've been administered anesthetics several times. Main effect; no experience of time. No White Light experience, not even dreams. AG* And no consciousness; which implies that there is some chemical process ne

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 6:53:18 AM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 8:10 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *>> But Alan, if religious mystics are unable to even dream of something in their philosophy then why the hell do they write millions of words about something they know nothing

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 5:52:48 AM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 7:41 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> **In Act 1 Scene 5 of Shakespeare’s play, Hamlet, Hamlet says to his friend:“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” AG

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Sat, Mar 8, 2025 at 7:41 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> **In Act 1 Scene 5 of Shakespeare’s play, Hamlet, Hamlet says to his > friend:“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt > of in your philosophy.” AG* *But Alan, if religious mystics are unable to even dream of so

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Saturday, March 8, 2025 at 5:28:57 AM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 7:42 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *>>>You may not have the slightest doubt that something is true, but that doesn't mean it is true, people have been known to be wrong about things that they were absolutely cer

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 7:42 PM Alan Grayson wrote: *>>>You may not have the slightest doubt that something is true, but that >> doesn't mean it is true, people have been known to be wrong about things >> that they were absolutely certain about, in fact such a thing is very >> common. I'm sure the

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 6:38:54 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/7/2025 4:45 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 3:49:36 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/7/2025 7:09 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consci

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

What does root even mean ? On Saturday, 8 March 2025 at 03:38:54 UTC+2 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > On 3/7/2025 4:45 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > > > On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 3:49:36 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 3/7/2025 7:09 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: > > My email response to Roger Penros

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/7/2025 4:45 PM, Alan Grayson wrote: On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 3:49:36 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/7/2025 7:09 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consciousness and computability. https://www.youtube.com/w

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 10:26:54 AM UTC-7 John Clark wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 10:09 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> If you're blessed to experience it, you will have no doubt of its role as the source of consciousness. * *You may not have the slightest doubt that something is true, but t

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 3:49:36 PM UTC-7 Brent Meeker wrote: On 3/7/2025 7:09 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consciousness and computability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUfMZ2dts8 Dr. Penrose; What you intuit exists, and

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On 3/7/2025 7:09 AM, Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consciousness and computability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUfMZ2dts8 Dr. Penrose; What you intuit exists, and seek, is called in Tibetan Buddhism "The Clear Light of the Void

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

On Fri, Mar 7, 2025 at 10:09 AM Alan Grayson wrote: *> If you're blessed to experience it, you will have no doubt of its role > as the source of consciousness. * *You may not have the slightest doubt that something is true, but that doesn't mean it is true, people have been known to be wrong ab

Re: Root of consciousness revealed

I tend to support Penrose in just about everything. also with Stuart Hammeroff, Penrose's medical medical guy.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa2Kpkksf3k On Friday, March 7, 2025 at 10:09:57 AM EST, Alan Grayson wrote: My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root

Root of consciousness revealed

My email response to Roger Penrose's speculations about the root of consciousness and computability. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biUfMZ2dts8 Dr. Penrose; What you intuit exists, and seek, is called in Tibetan Buddhism "The Clear Light of the Void", and is described in the "Tibetan Book of t