Re: [Dng] Linux boot documentation

Le 04/05/2015 16:48, Steve Litt a écrit : Hi all, I just documented the boot process, from Grub through init. See http://troubleshooters.com/linux/diy/howboot.htm Hope you like it. SteveT Dear Steve, I have a few comments, more or less important to understand how things work: I

Re: [Dng] Linux boot documentation

On 05/05/2015 11:22, Didier Kryn wrote: I'm not sure what happens if init crashes after other processes have been started, wether the kernel panics or other processes continue without init - not a very good situation. The Linux kernel panics when init dies. It's the dreaded "attempted to kill

Re: [Dng] Linux boot documentation

Am Dienstag, den 05.05.2015, 11:22 +0200 schrieb Didier Kryn: > I'm not sure what happens if init crashes after other processes have > been started, wether the kernel panics or other processes continue > without init - not a very good situation. FWIW: I've seen this happening with a home grown jes

[Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Hello Everybody, I pinned *systemd* packages into Pin-Priority: -1, and re-compiled cron package without anything related to systemd. But there is still /lib/systemd/system/cron.service file as we can see below. anto@d945gclf:~/packages/cron-3.0pl1-devuan$ grep -R systemd * debian/changelog:

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 11:57, Anto wrote: I pinned *systemd* packages into Pin-Priority: -1, and re-compiled cron package without anything related to systemd. But there is still /lib/systemd/system/cron.service file as we can see below. Which package actually generates all of the files and directories u

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Le 05/05/2015 12:57, Anto a écrit : Hello Everybody, I pinned *systemd* packages into Pin-Priority: -1, and re-compiled cron package without anything related to systemd. But there is still /lib/systemd/system/cron.service file as we can see below. anto@d945gclf:~/packages/cron-3.0pl1-devua

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Didier Kryn escribió: [...] I bet every service daemon package would now provide a .service file, just like everyone used to provide an init script. As far as I understand, the .service files are the systemd counterpart of sysvinit scripts. I imagine it is just enough to remove the fi

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 12:48, Noel Torres wrote: Didier Kryn escribió: [...] I bet every service daemon package would now provide a .service file, just like everyone used to provide an init script. As far as I understand, the .service files are the systemd counterpart of sysvinit scripts. I imagine

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 13:29, David Hare wrote: On 05/05/15 11:57, Anto wrote: I pinned *systemd* packages into Pin-Priority: -1, and re-compiled cron package without anything related to systemd. But there is still /lib/systemd/system/cron.service file as we can see below. Which package actually gene

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 2015-05-05 at 13:15 +0100, David Hare wrote: > On 05/05/15 12:48, Noel Torres wrote: > > > > Didier Kryn escribió: > > > > Please remember that our objective is not to forbid nor impede usage of > > systemd. A Devuan user might quite well **CHOOSE** to use systemd (well, > > not for the f

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 13:48, Noel Torres wrote: Didier Kryn escribió: [...] I bet every service daemon package would now provide a .service file, just like everyone used to provide an init script. As far as I understand, the .service files are the systemd counterpart of sysvinit scripts. I imag

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Anto escribió: [...] Hello Noel, I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate them :) You are free to do so. I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why should it? The decision in Debian to default the init system to systemd is the main reaso

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

The decision in Debian to default the init system to systemd is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place. Not exactly.. The reason is Debian's decision to *require* systemd with the only alternative a crippled OS. What is "default" matters less.. D

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 16:00, Noel Torres wrote: Anto escribió: [...] Hello Noel, I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate them :) You are free to do so. I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why should it? The decision in Debian to default the i

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 2015-05-05 11:34, Anto wrote: On 05/05/15 16:00, Noel Torres wrote: Anto escribió: [...] Hello Noel, I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate them :) You are free to do so. I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why should it? The dec

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Unlurking here for a moment... > Am 05.05.2015 um 16:05 schrieb David Hare : > > >> The decision in Debian to default the init system to systemd >> is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place. > > Not exactly.. The reason is Debian's decision to *require* systemd with the > only altern

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 2015-05-05 11:34, Anto wrote: On 05/05/15 16:00, Noel Torres wrote: Anto escribió: [...] Hello Noel, I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate them :) You are free to do so. I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why should it? The dec

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 16:05, David Hare wrote: The decision in Debian to default the init system to systemd is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place. Not exactly.. The reason is Debian's decision to *require* systemd with the only alternative a crippled OS. What is "default" matters less

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Please Guys, my answer to Anto was purely technical but it triggered a philosophical discussion which happened already several times. Could we stop the thread please? Maybe this discussion may happen later, when we are all happy with our working devuan system. Didier Le 05/05/2015 16:

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 02:31:45PM +0200, Anto wrote: > > I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why > should it? The decision in Debian to default the init system to > systemd is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place. And > the users who want systemd are better

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 2015-05-05, Anto wrote: > Which package actually generates all of the files and directories under > /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd if not the packages themselves, like cron > on the example above? dpkg -S /lib/systemd /etc/systemd ___ Dng mailing

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 05 May 2015 14:31:45 +0200 Anto wrote: > > > On 05/05/15 13:48, Noel Torres wrote: > > > > Didier Kryn escribió: > > > > [...] > >> I bet every service daemon package would now provide > >> a .service file, just like everyone used to provide an init > >> script. As far as I underst

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 05 May 2015 14:00:31 + Noel Torres wrote: > > Anto escribió: > [...] > > Hello Noel, > > > > I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate > > them :) > > You are free to do so. > > > > I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why > > sho

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 16:53, Tilmann Hentze wrote: dpkg -S /lib/systemd /etc/systemd Thanks Tilmann, I tried that command as well, though I usually use --search. But I actually just found it, with "find" command (Doh!) anto@d945gclf:~/packages/cron-3.0pl1-devuan$ find . -name "cron.service" ./debian

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 5 May 2015 16:40:55 +0200 Martin Waschbüsch wrote: > At any rate, Devuan's distinguishing factor, as Noel has correctly > pointed out, is that freedom of choice is promoted. So that people > can continue to mix and match components as they see fit. Therefore, > (at least from my POV), th

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 05 May 2015 16:50:13 +0200 Anto wrote: > In my view, the decision to use systemd as the default init of Debian > forces the locked-in of massive number of packages into systemd. That > is the main problem which leads to the birth of Devuan. They then > provide workarounds for people who

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:49:34AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Hi Noel, > > Having any systemd-equipped Devuan packages means that I need to always > be on my guard to prevent systemd from sneaking in. Could segregate the packages by putting them in another category, so we'd have free, contrib

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 12:35:57PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:49:34AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > Hi Noel, > > > > Having any systemd-equipped Devuan packages means that I need to always > > be on my guard to prevent systemd from sneaking in. > > Could segregate

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Steve Litt escribió: On Tue, 05 May 2015 16:50:13 +0200 Anto wrote: In my view, the decision to use systemd as the default init of Debian forces the locked-in of massive number of packages into systemd. That is the main problem which leads to the birth of Devuan. They then provide workaroun

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 04:52:44PM +, Noel Torres wrote: [cut] > > Because it is so intrincately depended on by the core of a Debian > system that we can not simply "get Debian and remove the systemd > bits". We owe our users a truly systemd-free system, and that's why > we are here, but we

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

dear Noel, I'm happy that you are back, we really miss DWN, but I'm also sorry to contradict you on this one. On Tue, 05 May 2015, Noel Torres wrote: > As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your > distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to > be una

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

But I guess there is no obstacle to for instance run vdev with systemd, huh? On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Jaromil wrote: > > dear Noel, > > I'm happy that you are back, we really miss DWN, but I'm also sorry to > contradict you on this one. > > On Tue, 05 May 2015, Noel Torres wrote: > > As a

Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

On 05/05/2015 08:55 AM, Anto wrote: > >> > > Just FYI. I just noticed that the changes that I have made seem to > break udev. It was not started after reboot- I have not investigate > further, but re-installing udev solve the problem. It seems that I > have to re-compile udev as well. But it looks

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 1:41 PM, shraptor shraptor wrote: > But I guess there is no obstacle to for instance run vdev with systemd, > huh? > There shouldn't be. However, someone will have to write a .service file for it. -Jude > > On Tue, May 5, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Jaromil wrote: > >> >> dear N

[Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 05:53:28PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 12:35:57PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:49:34AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > Hi Noel, > > > > > > Having any systemd-equipped Devuan packages means that I need to always > > > b

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote: As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for such an anti-freedom POV. Are you for real? D

Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

On 05/05/15 19:50, Peter Maloney wrote: On 05/05/2015 08:55 AM, Anto wrote: Just FYI. I just noticed that the changes that I have made seem to break udev. It was not started after reboot- I have not investigate further, but re-installing udev solve the problem. It seems that I have to re-compi

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 02:43:09PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: [cut] > > Well, yes. I can imagine a systemd hater who discovers down the road > that he needs a package that's been comtaminated with systemd. Maybe > instead of going whole-hog systemd, which is that the other distros > force h

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Jaromil escribió: dear Noel, I'm happy that you are back, we really miss DWN, but I'm also sorry to contradict you on this one. I like you contradicting me. Maybe it is not so big contradiction. About DWN, I've had bad days in the personal (and I'm still having) so maybe writing to the

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Anto escribió: On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote: As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for such an anti-freedom POV.

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

On Tue, 5 May 2015 14:43:09 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > Well, yes. I can imagine a systemd hater who discovers down the road > that he needs a package that's been comtaminated with systemd. Maybe > instead of going whole-hog systemd, which is that the other distros > force him to do, he can

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 07:33:32PM +, Noel Torres wrote: [cut] > > Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I follow Lennon on this. I Imagine a world > where systemd is optional (probably against its own core developers > wishes), and can be installed or deinstalled as any other init > system. > Well, yo

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

I will only say a few words. The purpose of Devuan was to promote software freedom and more specifically software choice. If systemd & Co. change drastically, which is clearly very unlikely to happen, it will be a completely another situation, and systemd & Co. may start forming part of a project

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

KatolaZ wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 07:33:32PM +, Noel Torres wrote: [cut] Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I follow Lennon on this. I Imagine a world where systemd is optional (probably against its own core developers wishes), and can be installed or deinstalled as any other init system. Wel

Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

Technically eudev is udev that is preextracted from the source. There is no real difference between it and the systemd-udev code... yet. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Anto Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2015 12:02 PM To: Peter Maloney

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

Plus, libsystemd is also a static library which everything has to link against. I haven't messed with systemd for a while, but last I remember there was no dynamically shared object version of the library. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Edward Bartolo

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 03:53:55PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: [cut] > >Unfortunately, systemd has been *designed* to be unpluggable, and to > >munch as much as possible of the low-level userspace. We should live > >with it, especially because the typical answer you get about systemd > >compatib

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

On 05/05/2015 20:43, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Well, the problem here is that systemd is*not* hot-pluggable, at all, as we have recently learned the hard way. Here's a thought. Thrown to the list with no requisite knowledge to back it up, so please don't bite! Is there any way of bu

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Noel Torres [2015-05-05 18:52]: > As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your > distribution, and will always be. At the moment, it is either Trios or Funtoo or Slackware, right? Or some limited distro like Alpine (which I run on my netbook). -- Hilsen Harald ___

Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

Hello > * I then argue that in the current world, autocompletion is not > reliable, because since it does not stat(), it cannot hide filenames > the user cannot execute, such as a 0644 file. What your autocompletion > is currently printing is an approximation of the programs you can run, > not an

Re: [Dng] Linux boot documentation

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 12:29:59PM +0200, Jürgen Buchmüller wrote: > Am Dienstag, den 05.05.2015, 11:22 +0200 schrieb Didier Kryn: > > I'm not sure what happens if init crashes after other processes have > > been started, wether the kernel panics or other processes continue > > without init - not a

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

KatolaZ wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 03:53:55PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: [cut] Unfortunately, systemd has been *designed* to be unpluggable, and to munch as much as possible of the low-level userspace. We should live with it, especially because the typical answer you get about systemd co

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Harald Arnesen wrote: Noel Torres [2015-05-05 18:52]: As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your distribution, and will always be. At the moment, it is either Trios or Funtoo or Slackware, right? Or some limited distro like Alpine (which I run on my netbook). I believe Ge

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

David Harrison wrote: On 05/05/2015 20:43, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: Well, the problem here is that systemd is*not* hot-pluggable, at all, as we have recently learned the hard way. Here's a thought. Thrown to the list with no requisite knowledge to back it up, so please don't bite!

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/15 21:41, Noel Torres wrote: Anto escribió: On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote: As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the pla

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:53:30AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > Before we get too deeply into this whole thing, what was the original > question? What exact thing are we arguing whether or not to include in > Devuan? Whether or not we need to rebuild packages that have .service files so they will no

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 05:34:19PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: [cut] > >I meant "we should live with the fact that systemd is not unpluggable" > >:) > > Nicely put. But do you draw any implication from that vis-a-vis > supporting systemd in Devuan? (I certainly do :-) > If it was up to me (

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 06/05/15 00:04, Isaac Dunham wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:53:30AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Before we get too deeply into this whole thing, what was the original question? What exact thing are we arguing whether or not to include in Devuan? Whether or not we need to rebuild packages th

Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

On 05/05/2015 23:03, marc...@welz.org.za wrote: Hello No, sorry. Doing chown root:admin && chmod 2750 does not give anybody in the admin group (the ones who should be allowed to run it) any extra rights - they are already running with admin group privileges Ah, yes, my mistake. The pattern I w

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, 05 May 2015 17:34:19 -0400 Miles Fidelman wrote: > Nicely put. But do you draw any implication from that vis-a-vis > supporting systemd in Devuan? (I certainly do :-) > > Cheers, > > Miles *I* certainly do. Why in the world would we make Devuan development and packaging one bit har

Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

Yes, we need another MacroShaft screwing us over a barrel... NOT. Sent from my Windows Phone From: Laurent Bercot Sent: ‎5/‎5/‎2015 3:21 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [Dng] [dng] vdev status updates

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 08:44:22PM +0200, Anto wrote: > > On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote: > > > >As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your > >distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to be > >unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not

Re: [Dng] why someone might want systemd on devuan

On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 09:17:28PM +0100, David Harrison wrote: > On 05/05/2015 20:43, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote: > >Well, the problem here is that systemd is*not* hot-pluggable, at all, > >as we have recently learned the hard way. > > Here's a thought. Thrown to the list with no requisite

Re: [Dng] A novice attempt to speed up Devuan development

On 05/05/2015 03:02 PM, Anto wrote: On 05/05/15 19:50, Peter Maloney wrote: Try eudev, which is a drop in replacement for udev on openrc systems, and I think it was forked from udev before systemd got it. https://github.com/gentoo/eudev or maybe this https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/eudev/

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/2015 05:36 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Or, migrating to BSD. I installed it over the weekend just 'cause. I'd be using it now, too, if it had write support for ext4. (I kinda want my 3TB home partition to be usable.) And I find it very hilarious that BSD has gnome 3.14 that seems to

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/05/2015 12:35 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 11:49:34AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Hi Noel, Having any systemd-equipped Devuan packages means that I need to always be on my guard to prevent systemd from sneaking in. Could segregate the packages by putting them in another c

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

Hi Jaret, > It would probably help to have some ground rules on how Devuan handles > packages which provide systemd support. I know Devuan says "Nope!" when it > comes to anything that would introduce systemd/init system dependencies, > but does it ever get more elaborate than that? If it is alr

Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

On 05/06/2015 01:16 AM, Jude Nelson wrote: I think the plan is to address needless dependencies and lock-in in a more general way, via the constitution (https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/DevuanConstitution). Sections 2.2 and 9.10 are meant to alleviate this problem--not just f

[Dng] Is it useful to create a .so file to replace functions imported from libsystemd & Co.?

I am using lsof together with objdump -T executable to determine what systemd functions are imported by essential XFCE4 executables. For instance, this is for /usr/lib/gvfs/gvfs-udisks2-volume-monitor: DF *UND* LIBSYSTEMD_209 sd_session_get_seat 00