> On February 16, 2015 at 5:19 PM Nuno Magalhães
> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> > dear Nuno,
> >
> > On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> >
> >> Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll),
> >
> > the reason why your emails are arriving
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:31:39PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> > Again, this will probably be
> > almost natural for the first release, since Devuan developers are
> > focusing on making the fewest necessary changes, but I am convinced
> > that it will soon become unpractical if not impossible
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:01:36PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
[cut]
> what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap
> of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of
> that, and it would be respectful to them to give them a proper choice,
if you
KatolaZ freaknet.org> writes:
>
> On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:01:36PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
> >
> > what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap
> > of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of
> > that, and it would be res
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 11:01:36PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
[cut]
>
> what you *don't* want to happen is to fall into exactly the same trap
> of forcing people into all-or-nothing decisions. we've had enough of
> that, and it would be respectful to them to give them a proper choice,
> an
hellekin dyne.org> writes:
> The version you wrote, that I reported as Issue #8, wants to tell a
> different story than what has been told so far. The project description
> clearly states that:
>
> + *removing mandatory dependencies on systemd* is the primary goal
> + in order to reach that goa
On Mon, Feb 16, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> dear Nuno,
>
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
>
>> Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll),
>
> the reason why your emails are arriving delayed is due to your email
> configuration: your Sender header address may
> welll there's a difference between including dependencies on
> systemd *itself* and converting code over to use the d-bus API. not
> that i like d-bus (long story: in 2005 i compared the spec to DCE/RPC
> and it was absolutely identical... except that d-bus only implemented
> about 25% of w
dear Nuno,
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015, Nuno Magalhães wrote:
> Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll),
the reason why your emails are arriving delayed is due to your email
configuration: your Sender header address may not be the same address
you subscribed, or so. sorry I didn'
Assuming i don't get moderated out (unlike the resident troll),
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote:
> 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using
> devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages.
>
> 2) we understand the difficulty o
> possible From:Luke Leighton
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
> Date: Today 01:44:25 PM
>
>
> i believe you may be severely underestimating the workload that the
> current debian maintainers handle. there are over 35,000 packages,
> and i believe something like 1,000 maintainers. there
T.J. Duchene gmail.com> writes:
>
> If I might add my opinion to the discussion, I will be very clear in saying
> that even attempting to stay somewhat in sync with Debian is a waste of
> valuable time and effort, and deserves a resounding “No” vote.
haaang on... :)
> the subject of systemd
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> what i wrote makes the following things very clear:
>
> 1) your debian system will not be screwed up or compromised by using
> devuan. you will also not lose any functionality or packages.
>
*** I guess that really depends on the case: as me
On 02/14/2015 06:59 PM, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> hellekin: can you see the difference between that and what's on the
> wiki (and on the web site)?
>
*** Surely I do, and I thank you very much for your version.
Please understand that the wiki page that I linked to was written once 2
months ago
On 02/14/2015 09:08 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
>>>
a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like
>>>
>> *** Word, KatolaZ, word. :)
>>
>
> I am sorry I am trashing your mailboxes with tons of words :( I would
> rather like to help you guys doing the hard work...
>
*** Aha!
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 09:59:00PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> Whilst it may prove unavoidable, we seek to actively avoid a complete
> fork of Debian (learning the lessons from Ubuntu), not least because
> we wish to make it easy for users to transition between Devuan and
> Debian (wit
On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 01:06:32AM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[cut]
>
> so whatever i go with, it has to be stable (or small enough for me to
> maintain myself). i can't even contemplate, right now, converting to
> e.g. FreeBSD even though i use fvwm2, because i am going to be
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 10:55 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 05:46:03PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
>
> [very long cut]
>
>>
>> this is again a self-fulfilling statement of intent, where i have
>> demonstrated logically and rationally above that the grounds for the
>> conclusion t
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 01:01:21PM -0300, hellekin wrote:
[cut]
>
> >
> >> a functioning and fuss-free GNU/Linux, which I can tinker with as like
> >
> *** Word, KatolaZ, word. :)
>
I am sorry I am trashing your mailboxes with tons of words :( I would
rather like to help you guys doing the ha
On Feb 14, 2015 6:31 PM, "Richard" wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 14, 2015 5:29 PM, "Luke Leighton" wrote:
> >
> > hellekin dyne.org> writes:
> >
> > >
> > > On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ freaknet.org>
wrote:
> > > >> On Thu, F
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 05:46:03PM +, Luke Leighton wrote:
[very long cut]
>
> this is again a self-fulfilling statement of intent, where i have
> demonstrated logically and rationally above that the grounds for the
> conclusion that you draw are incorrect.
>
> is there anything that yo
hellekin dyne.org> writes:
>
> On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ freaknet.org> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
wrote:
> >
> >>> is it the intent of the devuan team to:
> >
If I might add my opinion to the discussion, I will be very clear in saying
that even attempting to stay somewhat in sync with Debian is a waste of
valuable time and effort, and deserves a resounding “No” vote.
I'm all for using Debian upstream to minimize effort for the first releases,
but if
Am Samstag, 14. Februar 2015 schrieb Luke Leighton:
> to support the purchase of a new (recent) printer which requires hplip
> 3.16 for example i had to compile hplip *from source code* because
> TDE *even with latest packages* forces hplip 3.12 *not* 3.16.
Sorry, this statement is not true: TD
Hendrik Boom topoi.pooq.com> writes:
> Wasn't the initial plan to have a Devuan repository that could be added
> to the existing Debian repositories (but pinned to higher priority)
> so we could focus on changing what needed changing, but not waste time
> on replicating *everything*?
that is
Gravis adaptivetime.com> writes:
>
> > well, here's what _can_ assure that the transition will be at least
> > not complete hell and requiring a total abandonment of devuan for
> > debian and vice-versa (i.e. a total and complete wipe-down of a hard
> > drive and a reinstall from scratch):
>
>
KatolaZ freaknet.org> writes:
>
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:46:42PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> > Fork is permanent only as long as the two branches do not later converge
and rejoin.
>
> Yes, I know that, but have you ever seen anything similar happening in
> the past?
no - but that is,
Le 14/02/2015 17:08, Steve Litt a écrit :
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:12:38 +
KatolaZ wrote:
Before a few months ago I had never thought that I could ever been
forced to leave Debian after about 15 years of using and loving it. I
hope that eventually we will see a happy ending to this story, b
[to richard, top-posted deliberately so that the chances are high that
he will read it] - richard, apologies, i appreciate you are using
gmail which provides a nice clean way to encourage people to top-post,
but in case you have never encountered the reasons why it is bad, may
i suggest you read th
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 04:22:58 -0500
Gravis wrote:
> Like KatolaZ wrote, "the whole Debian project might crumble" and the
> truth is Devuan may be the acid rain deepening the cracks that have
> appeared on the stone statue we know as Debian. As long as we dont
> make absurdly radical changes, it s
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:12:38 +
KatolaZ wrote:
> Before a few months ago I had never thought that I could ever been
> forced to leave Debian after about 15 years of using and loving it. I
> hope that eventually we will see a happy ending to this story, but I
> don't have good feelings about th
On Sat, 14 Feb 2015 08:00:03 +
KatolaZ wrote:
> I am sorry but revolutions are not cheap, and every time you choose to
> go for something then you have to give up on something else. I really
> hope Debian will reconsider the systemd nonsense, but I suspect that
> the probability for this even
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 11:27:55AM -0430, Richard wrote:
> While this seems an admirable idea, it seems that Debian's change of
> direction is the reason we are here.
>
> A fork means that you take a different path. Inevitably those paths diverge
> --a fork.
>
> We have the benefit of where Debia
On 02/14/2015 10:16 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
>> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>
>>> is it the intent of the devuan team to:
>>>
>>> (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all time
While this seems an admirable idea, it seems that Debian's change of
direction is the reason we are here.
A fork means that you take a different path. Inevitably those paths diverge
--a fork.
We have the benefit of where Debian was with Wheezy and Jessie. That is our
resource. Devuan's goal I bel
MX-14, PCLOS, MINT-LTS, Gobo
On Feb 14, 2015 8:46 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton"
wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
> wrote:
>
> >> is it the intent of the devuan team to:
> >>
> >> (a) create
> well, here's what _can_ assure that the transition will be at least
> not complete hell and requiring a total abandonment of devuan for
> debian and vice-versa (i.e. a total and complete wipe-down of a hard
> drive and a reinstall from scratch):
Why do you say that? I use parts of
stable/testin
On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:12 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> is it the intent of the devuan team to:
>>
>> (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all times, without fail,
>> require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt
KatolaZ is 100% correct. Software distributions are remarkably
evolutionary in nature and while it's possible to co-exist, it's a
useful populous and funding that keeps distros alive. Devuan is the
divergence of Debian user base so to stay alive we need to increase
our number of useful people as
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 04:01:58PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[cut]
> so. to clarify:
>
> is it the intent of the devuan team to:
>
> (a) create a "fork" which will always, at all times, without fail,
> require that a debian repo be placed in /etc/apt/sources.list
>
> or
>
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 12:46:42PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:40:33 +
> KatolaZ wrote:
>
> > Having said that, and besides the fact
> > that I don't understand what you mean by a "temporary fork" (a fork is
> > a fork, it happens at a point in time and unless you ca
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:43:57AM -0800, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote:
> Here here!
>
> FUCK Debian.
> FUCK them.
>
> They spit in all of your faces.
> There needs to be a fairly clean break, atleast in the mind.
> Everything has to be, eventually, forked to keep a non-systemd userland
> (non db
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:43:57AM -0800, Usspookes Lovesystemd wrote:
> Here here!
>
> FUCK Debian.
> FUCK them.
>
> They spit in all of your faces.
> There needs to be a fairly clean break, atleast in the mind.
> Everything has to be, eventually, forked to keep a non-systemd userland
> (non db
over are not the people that produced
the great OS we knew. They are userpers.. and they think they're doing
good so they will not stop.
--- kato...@freaknet.org wrote:
From: KatolaZ
To: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org
Subject: Re: [Dng] recommendation for consideration:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 12:46:42 -0300
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:40:33 +
> KatolaZ wrote:
>
> > Having said that, and besides the fact
> > that I don't understand what you mean by a "temporary fork" (a fork
> > is a fork, it happens at a point in time and unless you c
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 3:40 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 03:24:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
>>
>> so i just wanted to put that thought into people's minds to consider,
>> as i see quite a lot of potential "scope creep" in the past two weekly
>> summa
On Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:40:33 +
KatolaZ wrote:
> Having said that, and besides the fact
> that I don't understand what you mean by a "temporary fork" (a fork is
> a fork, it happens at a point in time and unless you can travel back
> in the past, a fork has to be *permanent* by definition), no
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 03:24:54PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
[cut]
>
> so i just wanted to put that thought into people's minds to consider,
> as i see quite a lot of potential "scope creep" in the past two weekly
> summary debates that (fortunately!) has been sensibly debated a
i just read http://lists.devuan.org/dwn/1423732562.11152_1.fork:2,S.html
and i note that there are considerable plans to move away from the way
that things are done in debian (use of jenkins instead of dbuild, and
so on).
first some background: it strikes me that the arrogance and betrayal
of the
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