Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

I'm with a shared hosting company called Lunarpages. They tell me Django, by itself, even with Fast CGI, because it is a framework, is too resource intensive for them to allow. But many other shared hosting providers allow Django. So, how do those who do allow it allow users to use it without b

Re: Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

How would using Django be any different than having a very large Python script? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com

Re: Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

Do you guys know anything about MochaHost? http://www.mochahost.com/webhosting.php Sounds way to good to be true. . .Which probably isn't good. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. T

Re: Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

http://djangofriendly.com/hosts/mochahost/ Yes they do. They don't have any reviews --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googleg

Re: Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

So, is getting mod_python and Django worth ditching my current provider, and a dollar more a month? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-use

Re: Why do some shared hosting providers support Django and others don't?

Correction: I paid in advance for my current hosting provider, two years, and its only been 6 months. I can't be possibly be worth 18 months of wasted hosting. Thanks anyway, though. So long as my site still exists and I'm still using Python, I'll be reading this again in a year and a half. --~

Should I use Django?

Hi guys, I'm making a small site (small for now, at least), that isn't quite finished yet. I'm the only one who is writing server-side code. Presently, I'm writing straight Python code, through CGI, on a shared hosting provider. Is there any reason why I should use Django on my site, on the Goog

Re: Should I use Django?

> Is there any reason you should'nt? Plain CGI code sounds quite old > even for me ;) I'd have to rewrite everything. :( --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, se

Re: Should I use Django?

It's all relatively simple stuff, I guess... Thanks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this gr

Use a feature similar to the Admin sorting by date on my site?

Hi guys, I'm new to Django (haven't even done more than the tutorial, actually). I'm having people submit articles for my site newsletter. I want to sort the archives of these by both name and date, almost EXACTLY like the Admin interface does it (filter by date, sort by date, by name, etc.) How

Re: Use a feature similar to the Admin sorting by date on my site?

Sorry, I was a bit vague. I mean, how does one do something like the Admin interface does on my site? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-

Re: Use a feature similar to the Admin sorting by date on my site?

But Django doesn't offer it bult-in? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email

Do something on model save only if a certain change was made

I've got a site where users make articles for the newsletter. The content of their articles is a flatpage. My article model is below. My goal is to make it so that when the model is saved, and the status is changed from pending to accepted, it creates a flapage that is an html version of the ori

Re: Do something on model save only if a certain change was made

Hehe, completely forgot about those. Thanks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, se

Re: Do something on model save only if a certain change was made

Let me make sure I know what to do first. Get the pk of instance being saved, get the article out of the db that has that pk, and see if the old status was pending, and the new one is accepted? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscri

Using Signals as hooks

I'm a bit of a noob at Web Devlopment (as you already know if you've read any of my posts on here). I've read that using hooks in key places in a website can help ease future development. Can/Should Django's signals be used for that purpose? If so, to what extent should they be used? For examp

Re: Using Signals as hooks

It works. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubs

Re: Using Signals as hooks

Thanks. On the topic of scaling, my site hasn't even been publicly released yet. However, I'll keep your advice in mind as I work on it, to keep it "future-proof". --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Dj

Re: Using Signals as hooks

Question: how often should I have a cron job work to send emails? Or should I just have it so that a few items from a task DB are done each request (e.g. split up emails into groups, and email them a few per request)? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message

Re: Using Signals as hooks

> But if it's a small and low volume app and you are the > only developer managing it, you could get away with it :) You hit the nail on the head ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" gro

Re: Logout in Firefox but not in IE 6!

It might be caching the page. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to dja

Make three columns without violating DRY

Hi, On the homepage of my website, I have three columns of articles from users. I can't quite figure out how to make those three columns without violating DRY. Now, I have a dictionary of lists, with each list being the list of articles for one column. I then loop through the lists. Example:

Re: Make three columns without violating DRY

The columns are actually categories. The left column is sports, etc. So I can't make it a grid like that. I don't quite see how the paginator helps. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" gro

Re: Make three columns without violating DRY

Awesome. I'll see what I can do with these. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, sen

Re: Make three columns without violating DRY

I took Alex's idea. It works great. Thanks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, sen

Forms: Set default value

Hi, I'm defining a form model, and I have a choice field. I have the values in order, and I want one value (in the middle of the values in order) to be the default. How do I do that? Passing initial= anything doesn't work. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this

Re: Forms: Set default value

Sorry, I was little unclear above. I need to set the default for a form. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To uns

Re: IDE for Django and Ext JS

I use Kate for all my stuff, because, although not an IDE, it is one hell of text editor. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googleg

Template tag for getting CSS/scripts/images

I'm considering making a custom template tag that returns a url to a css file or image file. In your opinion, is it a waste of time? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to th

Django Admin Question

Hi, I've got a database of newsletter submissions from my users. Before using Django, I designed an Admin interface that listed the past 10 or so submissions that were still pending review by me, and asked for the ID of the one or ones that I wanted to accept or not accept. Is there a way to make

Re: Django Admin Question

Sorry, I wasn't very clear. The Administration's purpose is to let me decide, from the submissions that are pending review, which ones I want to accept (change the value for the column 'status' to 'accepted' for that row) and which ones I want to not accept (change the value for the column 'statu

Re: Django Admin Question

I want to make it so that I can just add enter the ID, and it will mark it as accepted --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegrou

Re: Should I use Django?

I thought I'd tell you: I decided to switch to Django/App Engine. :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscr

Re: Django Admin Question

Ok, just determined that all I'll be doing is changing existing entries. So this is solved. Thanks! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us

Flatpages variables

Hi, I've got a site where users must be logged in to view any pages. Logged in users may write articles for the newsletter, and upload them. I then convert the article to HTML (manually), and make it available for other users. I'd like make them available on flatpages, but I have to be able to c

Re: Mysql?

Why do you need shell access? Aren't you supposed to do all the coding and stuff on the local server, and then upload it? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, s

Re: Flatpages variables

Sorry, should've pointed out: I'm not using Django's user system, because I've got a PHP forum that I have to integrate with. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group

Re: Flatpages variables

Oh. Ok, I just read the docs. I'm going to use process_request. Thanks a bunch! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.c

Reason for not allowing spaces in usernames?

Why does Django not allow spaces in user's usernames? On my site, a user's username is the first and last name combined (the equivalent of user.get_full_name()). --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Djang

Re: Reason for not allowing spaces in usernames?

Do you think I would have problems if I disabled the checking for spaces? When I register users, I have it done automatically (user fills out a form), and Django doesn't have a problem with a space there. It's just in the Admin interface. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You

Re: Reason for not allowing spaces in usernames?

On Jun 12, 6:55 am, Marco Louro wrote: > As long as you trim start and trailing spaces, there shouldn't be any > problem, but personally I wouldn't use spaces in usernames at all. Why not? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscrib

500 Errors on 404 error?

I finally got Django to email me about 404 and 500 errors. To test it, I typed in a random path, that I knew would be a 404 error. However, I got an email, and an error page, about a 500 error. The email said the following: File "/home/schoo37/webapps/schoolgoo/lib/python2.5/django/core/ handl

Re: 500 Errors on 404 error?

Fixed. I had accidentally set handler404 to a blank string. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from

Should this be its own app?

I've got a website (project 'myproject'), in which people can make their own newsletter articles for submission to a group newsletter. Should everything that deals with newsletter stuff (storing articles, etc.) be in it's own app, or be part of the main app along with everything else? --~--~--

Re: Should this be its own app?

Right. I was wondering what would be best. Would it make sense to have that be it's own app? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@go

Re: Should this be its own app?

Thanks. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@

Re: Return something specific on 404's on a particular path

> If they upload the image, you likely have the name of the file in your > database.  Put a little IF statement in your templates.  If you find > the name of the image in the db/context, serve it up.  If you don't > find it, server up your default/placeholder image.  Does that not > work? Yup. -

Re: django forum

Looking at the demo, I think that is the best Python forum I've ever seen. Congrats. This would be my site's saving grace. However, I installed all the necessary programs, and I get "Cannot import name utils" from djapian. If you ever read this again, perhaps you could help with that? --~--~--

Re: django forum

Strike what I said above. It's fixed. @derekh http://forum.python.su --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsub

Re: Django editor for Debian

I like to use Kate (KDE's default text editor). It has auto-indent, and syntax highlighting for Python, and Django templates. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To

Re: Hosting for django?

Webfaction, for my small site, is spectacular. Their CP is awesome (I think it's their own, not another piece of software from someone else), and they are totally Python/Django oriented (they used to be called python-hosting I think). -- You received this message because you are subscribed t

Re: danjgo authentification

Shouldn't the form in fac_login.html target /login/? ... Even if not, that dot in the action attribute should _not_ be there, I don't think. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@goog

Remove a field in a form subclass

Hi guys, I've got a ModelForm defined like below: class ArticleForm(forms.ModelForm): title = forms.CharField(stuff) def custom_validator(): .. class Meta: model = Article I want to subclass it, but do _not_ want the title field, i.e. class SubArticleForm(ArticleFor

Uploads in the Form Wizard

Hi guys, I'm trying to use the form wizard for a model. The problem is, I have an ImageField in the last step, but I keep getting a "This field is required" on it. request.FILES contains the uploaded file, however. Can I use ImageField's in a Wizard? -- You received this message because you ar

Re: Uploads in the Form Wizard

Is that in trunk (i.e. could I revert to an older SVN revision and have it work)? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

Re: Uploads in the Form Wizard

Oh. Dang. Thanks for your help Russell. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.co

Re: Uploads in the Form Wizard

What would be the best workaround (or is there one)? Perhaps overriding FormWizard.process_step()? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group

Using the FormWizard with models

Hi guys, Another question about the FormWizard: is it possible to provide an existing instance of a model for the forms in the wizard? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups

Re: Updating profiles

Just as a side note, I made the user part of my Profile model a OneToOneField. Makes it easier to reference, i.e. user.profile.FIELD vs. user.get_profile().field -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email

Thread safety with Form Wizard

Hi guys, I'm a relative newbie at using Django in an actual production setting. I'm having trouble using the form wizard at the moment, and I noticed that there is one instance of the Wizard class, instantiated in urls.py. Is there anything I should worry about as far as thread safety is concerne

Re: Thread safety with Form Wizard

Anyone? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this gr

Re: Django 1.2.1 doesn't work with South but 1.2 works? How to find the previous version Django 1.2?

Djago 1.2.1 works fine for me with South. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.co

Controlling access to objects

Hi guys, I don't know whether the built-in permissions system would be appropriate here, but I want to control access to objects in one of my models, based on profile fields, like gender, age, etc. I planned to create a model "MyModelPermissions" like so: class MyModelPermissions(models.Model):

Re: Controlling access to objects

Thanks Dan. I also found this: http://goo.gl/l2IW -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@google

Filter based on result of model method

Is there a way to filter based on the result of a model instance method? I've got a Permission model with a one-to-one relationship with an Article. The Permission model stores the different groups that the Article author said could read their article. There's about 6 groups though, so I wrote a

Re: Filter based on result of model method

Anyone? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this gr

Re: Filter based on result of model method

> As I understand it, parameters passed to filter() are translated into SQL > statements.  An arbitrary python method that you write for your object can > do any number of things, which might not be translatable into SQL.  So I > don't see how any "filter on the result of any method" feature would

Re: Filter based on result of model method

> Everytime you call exclude (btw, this should be q = > q.exclude(pk=item.pk), no?), Yes =) I wrote that quickly with my post. > articles = [article for article in > Article.objects.all().select_related('permission') if > article.permission.can_view_article(request.user)] Good idea. -- You r

Re: Filter based on result of model method

> articles = [article for article in > Article.objects.all().select_related('permission') if > article.permission.can_view_article(request.user)] The only problem I see is that is that 'articles' is a list, not a queryset. The reason I was using q.exclude(pk=item.pk) is because the return value

Re: User Registration: Looking for tips

Would it be possible to just use two ModelForms? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegr

Underscores vs. Numbers

I noticed when I upload multiple files to my website with the same name, Django adds underscores to the file names. But doesn't that seems like it's less efficient than adding numbers to the end, (i.e. myfile (1).txt)? And on some OSs, a file name can be too long, which could cause problems. Any

Re: Underscores vs. Numbers

Well, to solve this, I'm planning to subclass the "get_available_name" method in django.core.files.storage.Storage to do exactly what it does now, except add a number instead of underscores. Any reason not to do this? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "

Entire site requires login

Hi guys, How would I make it so that every page requires a login? Should I use middleware or something like? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from

Re: django_evolution evolve not found

Shawn: Really? I'm not surprised, it had more than its fair share of bugs. Thanks for the link BTW. Is that your project? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To

Re: anybody tried web2py and gone back to Django?

First of all, I'd like to say that I think Web2py, and its maintainer Massimo, are awesome. =) I tried Web2py for a little while a couple months ago, but the biggest issue was poor documentation -- at the time, there was almost nothing. Now there's a whole book, online, but... Also, it was missi

Re: anybody tried web2py and gone back to Django?

I've noticed that there have been a lot of things in common: Web2py _didn't_ have very good docs, at least relative to Django's (which are spectacular), but now that the Web2py book is available online, that issue is kind of moot. Admin -- Web2py has two different Admins, one which doesn't have a

Making a User Registration form

Hi guys, What's the easiest way to make a user registration form, based on my own Profile model and the built-in user model? Writing my own form from scratch is looking like the most painless but time-consuming way. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "D

Re: Making a User Registration form

That doesn't look like it helps a whole lot actually. I don't see where I can create a registration form including my custom profile model. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@google

Re: Making a User Registration form

Wait, but do profile fields get displayed as part of the form? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubs

Re: Making a User Registration form

Ok, I think that'll work. I'll try it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

Multiple views files

Hi guys, I'm thinking about making multiple views files. I'm just wondering whether: a. There's any problems with that b. many people do it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googl

Passing message to 404

Hi, Is there a way to pass a message when I create a 404 error programmatically (i.e. from a view)? In my case, I'm using get_object_or_404, and I'd like to say something like, "That user does not exist" (this is for looking at user profiles). -- You received this message because you are subscri

Re: Passing message to 404

Thanks for your reply. One question though: How would I pass the message itself from view to view (the view raising the error to my 404 view)? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@goo

Re: Multiple views files

So I've got that the consensus here is to add a 'views' folder, and add my views files in that. Thanks for the help. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscr

Email address in registration form

Hi guys, I'm using a combination of the UserCreationForm and my own ModelForm of my Profile model to create a registration form. I want to get users' email addresses, however, that seems to be a field in contrib.auth.User, so it should be in UserCreationForm. I don't know whether to a. Add to the

Re: Email address in registration form

Username/password are on the UserCreationForm (which is in django.contrib.auth.forms). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email

Re: Remove session on browser close

Couldn't you use Javascript for this? For example, on the onbeforeunload event, delete the sessionid cookie? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from

Making email unique

Hi guys, I've got a Python website that has to integrate with a forum (i.e. when a user registers on mysite.com, they also have to be registered automatically on forum.mysite.com). That forum forces email addresses to be unique. How can I force that on Django? -- You received this message becau

Re: Why must {% extends '' %} be first value in template? Inconvenient for ajax versions.

Something I tried once: set the 'extends' template variable in your views (middleware even, maybe) to either an empty string or the path to your template, based on the result of request.is_ajax. I'm not sure though whether Django will throw an error if extends has an empty string. Suggestion: def

Add message each page load

Hi guys, How do I add a message (Django 1.2 style) each page load, and have it cleared after the request? I set up a middleware running on process_request, but I end up with a bunch of messages in the admin interface. My code: class BetaMessageSet(object): def process_request(self, request):

Re: Add message each page load

>  - have you enabled the messages' context processor? Yes >  - are you consuming the 'messages' variable in your templates? UmmYes? I'm displaying one message, but only 1, since I'm only setting 1 per request. That's probably the issue, but why is more than one message being set per request,

Re: display user.email in a custom model

Hmm, you should be able to do that. I do exactly that in one of my models. The only I differences I see between yours and mine is that you return a unicode string, rather than just a string, and you wrote self.user, rather than self.user.something. -- You received this message because you are s

Getting strange email from "dreamhost"

Hi guys, I've gotten two emails from "Mail Delivery Subsystem " with the subject "Your message was NOT received by django-us...@googlegroups.com!". The body is below. Anyone know why I'm getting these? Is anyone else getting them? I have no affiliation with Dreamhost or at all, so this is...stra

Re: Getting strange email from "dreamhost"

Hehe, that's kinda funny...Thanks for your help Russell. =) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to django-users+unsubscr.

Re: Newbie: New user creation with forms

What exactly do you mean by, "Create a user and allow that user to submit data such as messages"? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-us...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group,

Re: Giving up PHP. ...Can't decide between Django & Rails

I'm a bit of a noob as well, and know nothing about Rails, but I'd like to comment on a few issues you mentioned. 1. Non-existent template variables are replaced with the value of the TEMPLATE_STRING_IF_INVALID setting. Set that to something besides its default (an empty string) to make non-exis