hear! hear!
I spent the last hour drafting a message to the list with this same idea. I was
just turning in to sleep on my thoughts for the night, when Paul beat me to it.
--Craig Constantine, http://constantine.name
On Jun 11, 2013, at 10:33 PM, Paul Graydon wrote:
Aloha Ski,
I've got to s
On Jun 11, 2013, at 10:56 PM, Matt Simmons
wrote:
> > the "professional" thing for him to do is keep the secret?
>
> Well, yeah.
>
> It's not the *right* thing to do, but it would be the professional thing to
> do.
>
> Sometimes what you should do and what your profession says you should
> Exactly. In this case, I feel the board would have been better served by
not making a statement at all; it's a polarizing issue, and staying silent
would have been the better course. People on this list whom I respect
greatly have differing opinions on the issue, so there's really *no*
statement
> the "professional" thing for him to do is keep the secret?
Well, yeah.
It's not the *right* thing to do, but it would be the professional thing to
do.
Sometimes what you should do and what your profession says you should do
are different. Hopefully not often, but your Blackwater example (and t
On Jun 11, 2013, at 7:48 PM, Derek Balling wrote:
> So if he was working for Blackwater, and Blackwater was slaughtering innocent
> civilians by the truckload in the deserts of the middle-east, the
> "professional" thing for him to do is keep the secret?
>
Professionally? Yes. Personally I'
So if he was working for Blackwater, and Blackwater was slaughtering innocent
civilians by the truckload in the deserts of the middle-east, the
"professional" thing for him to do is keep the secret?
THAT's the position you think LOPSA should be taking? Screw the moral issues,
only focus on th
Aloha Ski,
I've got to say, I was really disappointed in the message put out by the
board. It managed to say basically nothing in a lot of words. I know
this is a complicated situation and one LOPSA should be careful not to
fall on any particular line for, but the statement is far more damag
Mario,
> This was sanctioned by FISA. You can bitch about FISA all you want, but it
> and several other checks serve as the due process. Work to change FISA if you
> believe it flawed. Corporations are people by law, though I think that's one
> of the more stupid judgements of this century, and
On Jun 11, 2013, at 9:46 PM, "Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)"
wrote:
> You think Facebook employees don't have that? You think it's clear, even
> within an organization the size of Facebook, which individual human beings
> know some credentials to get in with sufficient privileges as to see your
David,
Yes, I've been working with Ski to try to get media attention and have our
Directors quoted, if possible. I'm certain that if that happens, there'll
be a notice on the list or on the LOPSA blog. If you have any media
contacts, I'm all ears!
Also, about the ad on the blog, I don't know, but
> From: Derek Balling [mailto:dr...@megacity.org]
>
>> IMHO, the leaked info was pretty self-evident. Nobody expects their
>> facebook information to be private, do they?
>
> If I use Facebook to communicate directly with someone else, not on a wall
> but just in a private message? Yeah, I do ex
OK, people keep saying it was against the law. I'm going to borrow from a very
recent FB post of mine in response. I'm with SHrdlu and Pam on this one.
This was sanctioned by FISA. You can bitch about FISA all you want, but it and
several other checks serve as the due process. Work to change FIS
On Jun 11, 2013, at 9:33 PM, "Edward Ned Harvey (lopser)"
wrote:
> IMHO, the leaked info was pretty self-evident. Nobody expects their facebook
> information to be private, do they?
If I use Facebook to communicate directly with someone else, not on a wall but
just in a private message? Yea
> From: discuss-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:discuss-
> boun...@lists.lopsa.org] On Behalf Of Derek Balling
>
> A system administrator goes off the reservation for one of the biggest
> intelligence coups in American history, and there's no mention of it here?
IMHO, the leaked info was pretty s
MH> It's not even that they trust Facebook, but rather willingly spew some
MH> of the most personal information for all the world to see.
Yeah, although I agree with someone else who suggested that the privacy
part isn't the real issue. David Simon had an interesting take on this, at
http://davids
Thanks, Matt,
Yes, that link is unformatted text, but following from the LOPSA home page, to
the blog, to the article and you still have an advertisement.
It's kind of like having a breaking news event of national scale and having a
pop-up window or a pre-video commercial. It's distracting fro
I wrote about this in my blog today:
http://www.standalone-sysadmin.com/blog/2013/06/ed-snowden-whistleblower-was-a-sysadmin/
My bottom line was that professionally, he was wrong. As a citizen, he was
right, and I'm glad that he did it. It's impossible to reconcile those
thoughts, I suspect, but
One cannot help but wonder how many of us may be affected by
parts of $WORK that barely remember the existence of IT and
wouldn't know a System Administrator if one walked up and hit
them (regardless of the justification :) ... yet now, questions
will be asked... policies, controls and other shackl
David,
You can get a "clear" version of it here:
https://lopsa.org/files/esnowden-statement.html
The blog post is really just a blog post with no special formatting, I
think.
--Matt
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:51 PM, wrote:
> > Derek,
> >
> > Thanks very much for starting the discussion thr
> Derek,
>
> Thanks very much for starting the discussion thread on this topic.
> The
> board has been in active discussions about it also and has posted a
> statement at:
>
>
> https://lopsa.org/content/lopsa-statement-regarding-system-administrator-eric-snowden
>
> We look forward to your
It's not even that they trust Facebook, but rather willingly spew some of the
most personal information for all the world to see.
--
-
Mark Honomichl
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree,
it will live its whole life
Thanks for pointing this out Guus. You can find the statement at:
https://lopsa.org/content/lopsa-statement-regarding-system-administrator-edward-snowden
We'll have to put something in place to redirect the original link.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:30 PM, Guus Snijders wrote:
>
> Op 11 jun. 20
Op 11 jun. 2013 19:29 schreef "Ski Kacoroski" het
volgende:
>
> Derek,
>
> Thanks very much for starting the discussion thread on this topic. The
board has been in active discussions about it also and has posted a
statement at:
>
>
https://lopsa.org/content/lopsa-statement-regarding-system-admini
On 06/11/2013 09:25 AM, Arthur Gaer wrote:
To paraphrase Paul Krugman on This Week Sunday: The only people who'd be
surprised this is possible haven't watched a single thriller movie in
the past 20 years.
On the other hand, the American voters may still be surprised at how
much the Fourth Amendm
On 06/11/2013 09:27 AM, Mark Honomichl wrote:
I just don't get the sense that making that information public is that
HUGE. Even outside of my tech circles, it seems to be treated with a
shrug rather than outrage. The apathy is scarier than the revelation.
Yeah. my own filter bubble is pretty
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256
On 2013-06-11 4:33 PM, Derek Balling wrote:
>
> But to everyone but SCOTUS and the MIC, FISA seems like a blatant
> abuse of the 4th Amendment.
>
I know many people not involved in intelligence who support FISA and
the Patriot Act - not all people
On Jun 11, 2013, at 4:15 PM, Matthew Barr wrote:
> I don't know what oath's Snowden has taken. I do know that the UCMJ has a
> bit that only requires soldiers to obey "lawful commands" & "lawful orders".
The UCMJ also very specifically offers soldiers no means of determining that an
order i
MB> I don't know what oath's Snowden has taken. I do know that the UCMJ
MB> has a bit that only requires soldiers to obey "lawful commands" &
MB> "lawful orders".
MB>
MB> The excerpt of the UCMJ exists to deny the "only taking orders" defense.
True enough, but it doesn't speak to the "just follow
On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:11 PM, Derek Balling wrote:
>
> So. SERIOUS question.
>
> When the German soldiers took an oath to obey their orders. Should they have?
>
> I'm not saying that what the US government is doing rises to the level of
> genocide, but I'm saying that "taking an oath" is, I'm
DB> You're equating "lying" and "breaking an oath".
Enh, I'm treating them as interchangeable, in that they're things that
others might want you not to do, and which you also might usually not want
to do (for your own moral reasons), but which you might feel compelled to
do (presumably for other,
On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:41 PM, Josh Smift wrote:
> Yep, and sometimes it isn't. It depends how much you value truth-telling
> and oath-keeping relative to how much you value not doing whatever your
> oath is requiring you to do.
>
> (As it turns out, I think that telling the truth is really, reall
DB> Oaths and morals sometimes come into conflict. The oath doesn't always
DB> win simply by virtue of "being an oath". Sometimes the moral
DB> imperative is higher. Sometimes the moral good is stronger than the
DB> value of the oath.
Yep, and sometimes it isn't. It depends how much you value trut
On Jun 11, 2013, at 2:36 PM, Shrdlu wrote:
>
> There are a lot of questions that most people seem not to be asking.
> *I* do not think he's a hero, nor a whistle blower. I find him, on the
> face of it, contemptible. He took an oath. I do not believe he went in
> innocent, and he broke his word.
On Jun 11, 2013, at 2:07 PM, Tom Limoncelli wrote:
> 1. They are exposing something that is clearly against the law.
> 2. They are not benefiting monetarily from having the information revealed.
> 3. All other courses of action have been tried and failed (possibly
> not by them but by others).
>
S> Sorry, Josh, not picking on you in particular, it just seemed a good
S> spot to reply in this thread...
No worries, I don't feel picked on.
S> *I* do not think he's a hero, nor a whistle blower. I find him, on the
S> face of it, contemptible. He took an oath. I do not believe he went in
S> inn
Sorry, Josh, not picking on you in particular, it just seemed a good
spot to reply in this thread...
On 6/11/2013 9:16 AM, Josh Smift wrote:
DB> Whether you agree with him or not, he is showing the public at large
DB> what a idealistically motivated system administrator can do.
Maybe, but is
On Jun 11, 2013, at 2:26 PM, Pam Ochs wrote:
> ...We elect the members of Congress who permit, fund, and oversee these
> programs and we can vote them out of office and vote someone in who will
> eliminate the programs….
Only if we know the programs exist.
If we don't know the nature and
Is anyone aware that Snowden made any attempts to report his concerns
appropriately before choosing the course he did? I haven't heard any
mention that he reported to the IG or Congress, both of which he could have
legally and ethically done. Is one not supposed to exhaust other resources
before
YD> Assuming what was said is true, weren't these companies breaking the law?
YD>
YD> We can argue about those laws being good/repugnant, but isn't the
YD> issue here that these companies have broken the law?
I'm not sure about the facts in this case, but that's a good point:
Whistleblowing agains
I think it would be possible to come up with a "test" that helps one
distinguish between valid whistleblowing for "the civic good" and
carelessness. Ethicists come up with these things all the time. (I
can give examples of such "tests" if you wish)
I would say that in this case some candidate te
JBS> Would you feel the same way (that "whistleblowers need all the help
JBS> they can get") if his leak had been motivated by something that you
JBS> could see why someone else might find virtuous, but which you
JBS> personally find repugnant, with effects that he (and many many other
JBS> people)
Assuming what was said is true, weren't these companies breaking the law?
We can argue about those laws being good/repugnant, but isn't the issue here
that these companies have broken the law?
On 2013-06-11 11:51, Josh Smift wrote:
DB> PS - Myself, I agree with Tom. I think this guy is showi
On Jun 11, 2013, at 1:51 PM, Josh Smift wrote:
> How much do you (and Tom) feel that way because you agree with Snowden's
> views on what "the civic good" is?
>
> Would you feel the same way (that "whistleblowers need all the help they
> can get") if his leak had been motivated by something that
DB> PS - Myself, I agree with Tom. I think this guy is showing "what a
DB> motivated system administrator can do for the civic good", DESPITE
DB> promises he has made and broken.
How much do you (and Tom) feel that way because you agree with Snowden's
views on what "the civic good" is?
Would you
To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of that post.
It seems like it's trying to sit firmly on the fence[1] between those will
paint him as a hero and those who will paint him as a villain, because I
imagine this list, and LOPSA in general, contains a number of people in both
camps.
Personal
Derek,
Thanks very much for starting the discussion thread on this topic. The
board has been in active discussions about it also and has posted a
statement at:
https://lopsa.org/content/lopsa-statement-regarding-system-administrator-eric-snowden
We look forward to your comments.
cheers,
s
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> A system administrator goes off the reservation for one of the biggest
> intelligence coups in American history, and there's no mention of it here?
I hadn't realized he was a sysadmin!
He deserves an award. Whistle blowers need all the h
On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Daniel Gilmartin wrote:
> I think part of the trust of the public for
> systems and network people is that while we are 'good' we are also
> neutral, we don't take sides - we make things work and this changes
> that notion.
If you're working for one of the sides yo
On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:24 PM, Daniel Gilmartin wrote:
> No matter how someone feels about it I
> think it's more negative than positive for the profession - a reminder
> that people (including sysadmins) can and will betray someone's trust…
"Can" perhaps, but certainly not "will".
Same can be
To paraphrase Paul Krugman on This Week Sunday: The only people who'd be
surprised this is possible haven't watched a single thriller movie in the past
20 years.
On the other hand, the American voters may still be surprised at how much the
Fourth Amendment has been folded, spindled and mutilate
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256
> Whether you agree with him or not, he is showing the public at
> large what a idealistically motivated system administrator can do.
That's not necessarily a good thing. Not everyone views his actions as
positive or heroic. While some may view it a
Yes, everybody knew that what's on the wire is fair game for the NSA, and that
they have technology available today that scifi writers have trouble thinking
of But I thought this was news because people at companies have given them
more information that everybody thought was private until de
I just don't get the sense that making that information public is that
HUGE. Even outside of my tech circles, it seems to be treated with a shrug
rather than outrage. The apathy is scarier than the revelation.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> But making that informatio
re: voting public. Good point. Our enemies doubtless already knew...
So, that's the only thing that was added.
On 06/11/2013 10:11 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> But making that information public to the voting public at large is HUGE.
>
> Whether you agree with him or not, he is showing the public a
DB> Whether you agree with him or not, he is showing the public at large
DB> what a idealistically motivated system administrator can do.
Maybe, but is *that* news? Do most people not realize that one of the easy
ways that data might be leaked (from any organization) is by the people
who run the c
But making that information public to the voting public at large is HUGE.
Whether you agree with him or not, he is showing the public at large what a
idealistically motivated system administrator can do.
D
On Jun 11, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Mark Honomichl wrote:
> Hard to see this as one of the bi
Hard to see this as one of the biggest intelligence coups in American
history. He leaked the existence of a program that I would assume most (if
not all) of the people on this list knew was possible (if not probable) for
years.
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 10:39 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> A system
*shrug*
It's happened before, it'll happen again. Secrets are hard to keep.
-n
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 8:39 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> A system administrator goes off the reservation for one of the biggest
> intelligence coups in American history, and there's no mention of it here?
>
> D
>
>
On 06/10/2013 04:12 PM, Cole Lavallee wrote:
> In my experience the Robert Half salary guide have been significantly
> off. So has Global Knowledge, but worth a look I
> suppose:http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/generic.asp?pageid=3459&country=United+States)
>
>
>
Not too surprising -- sinc
On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Derek Balling wrote:
> A system administrator goes off the reservation for one of the biggest
> intelligence
> coups in American history, and there's no mention of it here?
I was going to ask for opinions on it but then I suspected that it'd
just turn into anothe
A system administrator goes off the reservation for one of the biggest
intelligence coups in American history, and there's no mention of it here?
D
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.lopsa.org
https://lists.lopsa.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discus
In my experience the Robert Half salary guide have been significantly off.
So has Global Knowledge, but worth a look I suppose:
http://www.globalknowledge.com/training/generic.asp?pageid=3459&country=United+States
)
- Cole
On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 5:58 PM, wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of recent
> From: discuss-boun...@lists.lopsa.org [mailto:discuss-
> boun...@lists.lopsa.org] On Behalf Of Mack Rhinelander
>
> I'm deploying antivirus in our small office, and I'm researching best
> practices.
>
> Is antivirus appropriate for Mac's/OS X?
No OS is perfect; they are all subject to vulnerab
63 matches
Mail list logo
