On 11/04/2010 07:55 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 07:41 +0100, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> I'm not sure SNR is the be-all and end-all, really.
When it comes to efficiency, it is.
In other words, as far as I am concerned, abrt has reduced efficiency of
bug-hunting by flooding mai
> > On 11/3/10 2:14 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> > > And it's unreasonable to expect those ISVs to change when Fedora has
> > > not managed to package a working JBoss. If the Red Hat Java packaging
> > > can not even be used with the top Red Hat Java product, what is there
> > > to say? (and on thi
On Wednesday 03 November 2010, Alexander Kurtakov wrote:
>
> There is no sane way to make javadoc crosslink in a sane way, i.e. without
> patching builds. That's why I would say let's postpone this until we can
> tell packagers HOWTO do it.
I'm not against postponing as long as it's not forgotten
On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Stanislav Ochotnicky wrote:
> Java SIG has prepared changes in current Java packaging guidelines. We
> would welcome wider discussion/comments at this point. From our point of
> view guidelines seem ready for approval by FPC.
>
> You can see current version of draft
As far as I understand the process you might just recheck your bug
report against last official release and bump version in the
corresponding field if the bug is still reproducible.
Otherwise, no-one is interested to improve 2-3years old _desktop_ system.
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:41 PM, Bert Des
Hi,
> Summary:
> Added Packages: 0
> Removed Packages: 9900
> Modified Packages: 0
It's a bit strange. Isn't it?
Regards,
Michal
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--- Comment #2 from Fedora Update System 2010-11-04
05:44:22 EDT ---
perl-Lingua-EN-Tagger-0.16-4.fc13 has been submitted as an
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https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=526255
--- Comment #2 from Bug Zapper 2010-11-04
05:45:24 EDT ---
This message is a reminder that Fedora 12 is nearing its end of lif
On 04/11/10 04:23, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 22:12 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 9:55 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-11-03
* Orcan Ogetbil [04/11/2010 09:35] :
>
> The extreme inefficiency comes from the bugs that I can't reproduce,
> the upstream can't reproduce, and the user isn't responding. And this
> happens *a lot*. Most of the time, they don't even put down the steps
> to reproduce. Can we at least mandate inclu
On 04/11/10 06:56, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
> For a bug that I can reproduce, the time it takes for me to fix it
> might be comparable to the time it takes me to report it upstream and
> get it fixed there.
Maybe not something all users can do, write code?
Should not be a barrier to using Linux, Fe
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:15:30AM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> The question is Am I using the time efficiently? OR Are the these
> tools actually preventing me to be efficient during my available time?
Wasn't there some way for a maintainer to opt out of abrt?
I remember seeing this being disc
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:10:54 -0400
Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> I am pretty sure a subset of these closed bugs are "mass-closing" of
> bugs when a maintainer updates the software. Sometimes, when you
> forward the report upstream, they don't understand the output either,
> and say "it may be fixed, just
On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:41:22 +0100, Bert wrote:
> hi!
>
> This is something I got in my mail box today.
> As I don't have a valid answer for this, maybe someone else can answer for me?
>
> cheers, Bert
>
> the url of the blog of the guy: http://www.krisbuytaert.be/blog/
>
> == the mail ==
>
>
Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 02:15 -0400 schrieb Orcan Ogetbil:
> The question is
> Am I using the time efficiently? OR
> Are the these tools actually preventing me to be efficient during my
> available time?
How would they? You can ignore all bug reports, you can even set up a
mail filter to n
Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 12:18 +0100 schrieb Sven Lankes:
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:15:30AM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
> > The question is Am I using the time efficiently? OR Are the these
> > tools actually preventing me to be efficient during my available time?
>
> Wasn't there some
Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 13:28 +0100 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:41:22 +0100, Bert wrote:
> >
> > So can someone please explain my why I should continue to try to
> > improve Fedora by reporting bugs ?
>
> Glad you ask this. The bugzapping script is stupid. It asks the
Hi,
some possitive news from me first:
We have a new backtrace parser which should be able to find the
duplicates much better (tested on every known dupes reported by ABRT so
far) so at least the number of dupes should lower once this out (we're
having some troubles with SELinux so it didn't mak
Dear All.
I would like to ask, when it will be possible to have kernel 2.6.35 with
/sys/module/drm_kms_helper/parameters/poll to disable "hotplug" polling.
I have laptop with i915GM video and experience mouse cursor freezes every 10
second.
This is all about: issue with "hotplug" polling on t
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comments should be made in the comments box of this bug.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=505766
Bernie Innocenti changed:
What|Removed |Added
--
commit fe006874ad09ab439615db43ea80c6964a723207
Author: Tom "spot" Callaway
Date: Thu Nov 4 10:35:06 2010 -0400
update to 2.27
perl-Log-Dispatch.spec | 39 +--
sources|2 +-
2 files changed, 18 insertions(+), 23 deletions(-)
---
di
commit 69b521d3e82448661cbf2cdea60de4a05f31c262
Author: Tom "spot" Callaway
Date: Thu Nov 4 10:35:24 2010 -0400
update to 2.27
perl-Log-Dispatch.spec | 36 ++--
sources|2 +-
2 files changed, 15 insertions(+), 23 deletions(-)
---
diff
commit 3583f01cadb963e963379cb99f57835ebc5ebea5
Author: Tom "spot" Callaway
Date: Thu Nov 4 10:35:42 2010 -0400
update to 2.27
perl-Log-Dispatch.spec | 44 ++--
sources|2 +-
2 files changed, 19 insertions(+), 27 deletions(-)
-
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:21:19PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
[Opt-out for ABRT-Reports]
> How would you do that? A popup in ABRT that reads
> "Sorry, but the maintainer of this package
> has decided to not accept any bug reports."
Nope.
App X crashes and the
> "RC" == Ralf Corsepius writes:
RC> In other words, as far as I am concerned, abrt has reduced
RC> efficiency of bug-hunting by flooding maintainers with low quality,
RC> often unusable reports and risen the communication churn related to
RC> BZs.
It's been discussed many times and I still
On 11/04/2010 03:38 PM, Sven Lankes wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:21:19PM +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
>
> [Opt-out for ABRT-Reports]
>
>> How would you do that? A popup in ABRT that reads
>>"Sorry, but the maintainer of this package
>>has decided to not acc
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> How would you do that? A popup in ABRT that reads
>
> "Sorry, but the maintainer of this package
> has decided to not accept any bug reports."
>
> I think this would be a *really* bad user experience.
If telling the truth ab
On 04/11/10 14:46, Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
but when user
> wants to report (or generate a backtrace) it will tell him something like:
>
>ABRT can't report a bug in this application, because it's not able
> to gather all required information. You can analyze the bug using ABRT,
> but you h
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--- Comment #5 from Fedora Update System 2010-11-04
11:08:33 EDT ---
perl-Log-Dispatch-2.27-1.fc14 has been submitted as an upd
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--- Comment #4 from Fedora Update System 2010-11-04
11:08:25 EDT ---
perl-Log-Dispatch-2.27-1.fc13 has been submitted as an upd
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 10:48:03 +0100
Michał Piotrowski wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > Summary:
> > Added Packages: 0
> > Removed Packages: 9900
> > Modified Packages: 0
>
> It's a bit strange. Isn't it?
Rawhide is bug free today! :)
Seriously, it's due to some mash changes to break inheritence between
f15
Here's another problem:
Prelink erases file-based capabilities.
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=456105
Rich.
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Fedora now supports 80 OCaml packages
On Wed, 2010-11-03 at 21:02 -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Bert Desmet wrote:
> > hi!
> >
> > This is something I got in my mail box today.
> > As I don't have a valid answer for this, maybe someone else can answer for
> > me?
> >
> > cheers, Bert
> >
> > the url of
Compose started at Wed Nov 3 08:15:18 UTC 2010
Broken deps for x86_64
--
1:anjuta-2.31.90.0-3.fc15.i686 requires libvala-0.10.so.0
1:anjuta-2.31.90.0-3.fc15.x86_64 requires libvala-0.10.so.0()(64bit)
apcupsd-3.14.8-3.
On 11/04/2010 01:21 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 13:28 +0100 schrieb Michael Schwendt:
>> On Wed, 3 Nov 2010 21:41:22 +0100, Bert wrote:
>>> So can someone please explain my why I should continue to try to
>>> improve Fedora by reporting bugs ?
>> Glad you ask this.
On 11/4/10 2:48 AM, Michał Piotrowski wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Summary:
>> Added Packages: 0
>> Removed Packages: 9900
>> Modified Packages: 0
>
> It's a bit strange. Isn't it?
>
> Regards,
> Michal
Small hiccup. Bill fixed it.
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On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 04:10:31PM +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> If the maintainer is not responding to reports or not acting as the link
> to upstream ( that if he's not upstream himself ) for the component he's
> responsable for in Fedora I ask you this why are those components in
>
abdel.g.martine...@gmail.com
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On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 12:18 +0100, Sven Lankes wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:15:30AM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>
> > The question is Am I using the time efficiently? OR Are the these
> > tools actually preventing me to be efficient during my available time?
>
> Wasn't there some way for a
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 13:28 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
> > So can someone please explain my why I should continue to try to
> > improve Fedora by reporting bugs ?
>
> Glad you ask this. The bugzapping script is stupid. It asks the reporter
> for NEEDINFO when in fact it ought to ask WTF has t
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 14:20 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 02:15 -0400 schrieb Orcan Ogetbil:
> > The question is
> > Am I using the time efficiently? OR
> > Are the these tools actually preventing me to be efficient during my
> > available time?
>
> How would th
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 14:21 +0100, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, den 04.11.2010, 12:18 +0100 schrieb Sven Lankes:
> > On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 02:15:30AM -0400, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> >
> > > The question is Am I using the time efficiently? OR Are the these
> > > tools actually preventi
On 11/04/2010 04:24 PM, Richard W.M. Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 04:10:31PM +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
>> If the maintainer is not responding to reports or not acting as the link
>> to upstream ( that if he's not upstream himself ) for the component he's
>> responsable for in
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 05:23:09PM +0300, macachuto wrote:
> Dear All.
>
> I would like to ask, when it will be possible to have kernel 2.6.35 with
> /sys/module/drm_kms_helper/parameters/poll to disable "hotplug" polling.
>
> I have laptop with i915GM video and experience mouse cursor fre
On Wed, Nov 03, 2010 at 04:51:01PM -0400, Owen Taylor wrote:
> [ But yes, 4% is a big hit. 1% I would accept without hesitation.
> 4% does make me hesitate a little bit. During devel cycles, we
> accept much more slowdown than that for the debug kernel,
> of course. If we can figure out
commit 7d75c071e56dfa93e7aecf883055fea062d9e0d4
Author: Marcela Mašláňová
Date: Thu Nov 4 18:38:15 2010 +0100
Update, clean spec.
perl-POE-Filter-IRCD.spec | 14 +-
1 files changed, 9 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)
---
diff --git a/perl-POE-Filter-IRCD.spec b/perl-POE-Filter-
On 07:41 Thu 04 Nov , Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> snip...
>
> As a maintainer, abrt to me primarily means "wading through wakes of
> hardly readable emails", mostly to scan them for useful information. I
> many cases I ended up with closing BZ, because these emails did not
> contain sufficient
On 04/11/10 17:51, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> This is the problem we have with java-1.6.0-openjdk, except it's magnified
> by the fact that the user could be running *ANYTHING* on the JVM. So if
> some native code in a Java application crashes the JVM, we get an abrt
> bug report for it.
>
On 17:54 Thu 04 Nov , Frank Murphy wrote:
> On 04/11/10 17:51, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
>
>
> > This is the problem we have with java-1.6.0-openjdk, except it's magnified
> > by the fact that the user could be running *ANYTHING* on the JVM. So if
> > some native code in a Java applicatio
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 17:51 +, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> Please turn these off for this package until such a time as the default
> abrt report is actually useful for some form of diagnosis, which means
> it at least has an hs_err file and mandatory reproducer information.
It'd be best to
On 04/11/10 17:56, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> I just have.
Excellent.
>
> And not for the first time.
Constantly evolving.
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On 11/04/2010 06:56 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> On 17:54 Thu 04 Nov , Frank Murphy wrote:
>> On 04/11/10 17:51, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
>>
>>
>>> This is the problem we have with java-1.6.0-openjdk, except it's magnified
>>> by the fact that the user could be running *ANYTHING* on t
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 12:28:22PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> If we go ahead and do something about that problem, what about just using
> -fno-omit-frame-pointer during rawhide builds, and then switching it off
> at branch time ?
>
Just figuring out what this entails: would this mean doing two ma
On 19:06 Thu 04 Nov , Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
> On 11/04/2010 06:56 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> > On 17:54 Thu 04 Nov , Frank Murphy wrote:
> >> On 04/11/10 17:51, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> This is the problem we have with java-1.6.0-openjdk, except it's magnified
>
On 11/04/2010 07:26 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> On 19:06 Thu 04 Nov , Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
>> On 11/04/2010 06:56 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
>>> On 17:54 Thu 04 Nov , Frank Murphy wrote:
On 04/11/10 17:51, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> This is the problem w
Le jeudi 04 novembre 2010 à 09:38 -0700, Adam Williamson a écrit :
> On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 13:28 +0100, Michael Schwendt wrote:
>
> > > So can someone please explain my why I should continue to try to
> > > improve Fedora by reporting bugs ?
> >
> > Glad you ask this. The bugzapping script is stu
Le jeudi 04 novembre 2010 à 19:40 +0100, Jiri Moskovcak a écrit :
> On 11/04/2010 07:26 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> > Yes, this thread is what I was referring to.
> >
> > If you're happy with /var/log/openjdk as a location for error logs, I
> > can look at adding this option upstream.
>
>
On Sat, 30 Oct 2010, Matt McCutchen wrote:
> On Sat, 2010-10-30 at 14:03 -0800, Javier Prats wrote:
>> Where is this info kept on the install image and how would I go about
>> modifying it locally to start playing? I'd like to learn whether some
>> one else does this or not.
>
> It's in anaconda.
On 11/04/2010 01:05 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> My question would be 'why'? There seems to be an assumption that an open
> bug report you can't fix is a serious problem; of course in a sense it
> is, but then, it's not as if, if we remove or otherwise change abrt,
> software is going to magically
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 17:51 +, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote:
> On 07:41 Thu 04 Nov , Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> > snip...
> >
> > As a maintainer, abrt to me primarily means "wading through wakes of
> > hardly readable emails", mostly to scan them for useful information. I
> > many cases I e
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 17:41:34 + (UTC), Daniel wrote:
> Release of libxml2-2.7.8
>
> libxml2.spec | 10 --
Seems to break the koji build root due to ABI incompatibility.
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On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 19:44 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> From a practical point of view, as a bug reporter, when I get mass
> notifications to update scores of bugs that were opened years ago, and
> that the people owning the component never bothered to respond on (even
> to confirm they were al
On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 09:38 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> The practical point is that F12
> is about to go EOL which means the bug must be closed...
Why? Obviously it needs to be clear that nothing further should be
expected from the maintainer unless/until the version is bumped. But
the proje
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Robert Scheck changed:
What|Removed |Added
-
* Przemek Klosowski [04/11/2010 21:51] :
>
> (why do I need to know about new CC:s on the bug list)
FWIW, this can be configured:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
Emmanuel
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A file has been added to the lookaside cache for perl-Mojolicious:
7b0ddd25aca34032b93c577f1533ba75 Mojolicious-0.35.tar.gz
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On 11/04/2010 03:22 PM, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * Przemek Klosowski [04/11/2010 21:51] :
>>
>> (why do I need to know about new CC:s on the bug list)
>
> FWIW, this can be configured:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/userprefs.cgi?tab=email
>
> Emmanuel
>
But probably should be configured not to sen
commit 7e696e38ff8e4214fb9e082c45dc3a217c75fa6b
Author: Yanko Kaneti
Date: Thu Nov 4 23:29:12 2010 +0200
- Latest upstream release.
http://search.cpan.org/src/KRAIH/Mojolicious-0.35/Changes
.gitignore|1 +
perl-Mojolicious.spec | 16 +++-
sources
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 1:51 AM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
> 2010/11/4 Orcan Ogetbil :
>> Maybe it is time to discuss the usefulness of ABRT to Fedora. I think
>> that it is a great idea for commercial products such as RHEL, but it
>> obviously did not fit Fedora as is.
>
> No need to discuss - it's rea
On 11/04/2010 10:49 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 1:51 AM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
>> 2010/11/4 Orcan Ogetbil :
>>> Maybe it is time to discuss the usefulness of ABRT to Fedora. I think
>>> that it is a great idea for commercial products such as RHEL, but it
>>> obviously did not
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
> On 11/04/2010 10:49 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 1:51 AM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
>>> 2010/11/4 Orcan Ogetbil :
Maybe it is time to discuss the usefulness of ABRT to Fedora. I think
that it is a great idea for com
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 16:10:17 -0400, Matt McCutchen wrote:
> On Thu, 2010-11-04 at 09:38 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> The practical point is that F12
>> is about to go EOL which means the bug must be closed...
>
> Why? Obviously it needs to be clear that nothing further should be
> expected f
Please review these design notes for implementing one way AD sync. In
particular, I'm concerned about the possible inconsistencies that can
arise from directly modifying a synced entry on the DS side. Does using
access control seem sufficient for avoiding these inconsistencies?
If these notes
On 11/04/2010 07:47 PM, Matt McCutchen wrote:
> If someone else cares and retests, they ideally
> would be able to reopen it, but Bugzilla currently doesn't allow that
Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong but as I recall we changed that
deliberately.
( should be a discussion about this in this li
On 11/04/2010 11:22 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 6:05 PM, Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
>> On 11/04/2010 10:49 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 1:51 AM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
2010/11/4 Orcan Ogetbil :
> Maybe it is time to discuss the usefulness of ABRT to F
I'm sorry you are unable to continue maintaining these packages,
Victor. I'm forwarding this to the Java list.
I use cobertura here, so I've taken ownership of that one already.
-- Forwarded message --
From: Victor G. Vasilyev
Date: 28 October 2010 13:08
Subject: Orphaning packa
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 11:57:58 +0100, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * Orcan Ogetbil [04/11/2010 09:35] :
>>
>> The extreme inefficiency comes from the bugs that I can't reproduce,
>> the upstream can't reproduce, and the user isn't responding. And this
>> happens *a lot*. Most of the time, they don't eve
On 11/04/2010 10:22 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> 2- ABRT should keep track of unresponsive users. If a user has an
> outstanding "needinfo?" flag for the bugs sent through ABRT, he
> shouldn't be able to send a new bug report through ABRT for my
> packages.
>
Since this has turned into general pony
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 11:14:08AM +0300, Pekka Pietikainen wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 12:44:52PM +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> > This feature is now approved and I see bugs get filed. The documentation
> > and
> > guidelines are very incomplete. How does one figure out which file
> > cap
Interesting move: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551
Has anyone looked into bringing Wayland to Fedora? If not this might be the
right time getting involved in the discussion.
http://wayland.freedesktop.org/
Regards,
Dennis
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On 11/05/2010 06:41 AM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote:
> Interesting move: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551
>
> Has anyone looked into bringing Wayland to Fedora? If not this might be the
> right time getting involved in the discussion.
>
> http://wayland.freedesktop.org/
Considering th
On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 2:10 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Considering that it was started by a Red Hat employee, I would say there
> has already been some involvement
a cursory look at who has private branches of it on
git.freedesktop.org is also good indication as to where the
involvement has been
On Thu, Nov 04, 2010 at 11:58:21PM +, "Jóhann B. Guðmundsson" wrote:
> On 11/04/2010 10:22 PM, Orcan Ogetbil wrote:
> > 2- ABRT should keep track of unresponsive users. If a user has an
> > outstanding "needinfo?" flag for the bugs sent through ABRT, he
> > shouldn't be able to send a new bug
On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Jiri Moskovcak wrote:
> So to sum it up, the fastest solution I can provide for you is to blacklist
> your packages and/or ask for at least some text in steps to reproduce.
>
That would be an excellent start. Thank you for spending your time on this.
Orcan
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deve
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