A bit late, but still this thread has been slightly getting on my
nerves...
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:44:40 +0100
Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
> > along the lines of: ch
On 10/6/2011 12:41 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
>Simo Sorce wrote:
>>
>> My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
>> way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
>> the wall, and again even if yo
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:26PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:36 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham said:
> > > Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
> >
> > Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the screen (I
Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 15:39 -0400, Felix Miata a écrit :
> Instead, display fonts of different sizes and have user pick one. No need for
> user to know or care about units or numbers or DPI,
That does not work because those units are used in different electronic
formats, for example office
On 2011/10/06 21:22 (GMT+0200) Nicolas Mailhot composed:
> C. for font sizes
> 1. display them in points (pt) or pixels (px),
no
> 2. display the unit you're using. Don't make the user guess what the
> perverted font dialog author had in mind
no
> 3. let the user specify them in points o
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:22:22PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 16:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> > What heuristic?
>
> The one you were writing about
The heuristic I was writing about is the "Trust the DPI we get from EDID
if it's within some size range". We
On 2011/10/06 13:59 (GMT-0400) Simo Sorce composed:
> the crowd is even farther from the wall than the projector is :)
Church sanctuary projectors are typically near the back, which means huge
numbers of, if not most people, are closer to the viewing surface than the
projector is.
--
"The wise
Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 16:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 05:33:48PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> >
> > Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> > > The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
> > > technology that allows us
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:36 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham said:
> > Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
>
> Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the screen (I
> think they use IR). I don't expect that they change the EDID screen
> si
Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham said:
> Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the screen (I
think they use IR). I don't expect that they change the EDID screen
size reporting though.
--
Chris Adams
Systems and Network Administ
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
> Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Quite possible to do with existing off the shelf ultrasonic or diode
laser telemetry being used for DYI robotic range finding. In fact you
can get ones that use i2c for data acquisition.I could
Simo Sorce (s...@redhat.com) said:
> My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
> way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
> the wall, and again even if you knew the distance from the wall you'd
> know nothing because the optimal DPI wil
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:41 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
> Simo Sorce wrote:
> >
> > My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
> > way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
> > the wall, and
On 2011/10/06 15:33 (GMT+0100) Matthew Garrett composed:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>> I would wager that the majority of Fedora systems are single monitor
>> (or, in the case of notebooks, single monitor much of the time); can't
>> we at least try to correc
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 12:00 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
> easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
> with no mention of DPI if you prefer) *if* it is needed.
There actually is one, only it's called
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 17:12 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
> > easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
> > with no mention of DPI
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 12:12 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:14 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> > On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > > EDID does not reliably give you the size of the display.
> >
> > How about "EDID as it exists today". Since you're able to
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
> way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
> the wall, and again even if you knew the distance from the wall you'd
> know nothing
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:14 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > EDID does not reliably give you the size of the display.
>
> How about "EDID as it exists today". Since you're able to so beautifully
> explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you'v
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
> easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
> with no mention of DPI if you prefer) *if* it is needed.
> Chances are that a much wider f
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:46 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:39:16AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> > On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> > >
> > > > How about "EDID as it exists today
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:44 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
> > along the lines of: change font resolution to better fit multiple
> > monitors. so that when someone
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:39:16AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> >
> > > How about "EDID as it exists today". Since you're able to so beautifully
> > > explain what the pitfal
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
> along the lines of: change font resolution to better fit multiple
> monitors. so that when someone that has widely varying DPIs between
> monitors plugs a second moni
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
>
> > How about "EDID as it exists today". Since you're able to so beautifully
> > explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you've raised this with the
> > VESA and asked that
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 05:33:48PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
> Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> > The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
> > technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
> > displays, and solving it pure
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:18 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
> technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
> displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
> complicated case *worse*. Adding ad
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
> technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
> displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
> complicated case *worse*.
How does it m
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 15:37, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 01:13:21PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>>
>> Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
>>
>> > This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
>> > size of the font. Save the im
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
> How about "EDID as it exists today". Since you're able to so beautifully
> explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you've raised this with the
> VESA and asked that they revisit this in the future to accurately
> provide DPI informat
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
complicated case *worse*. Adding additional complexity for what would
be, at best, a different set o
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
>
> > Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
> > log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_ at least, that we
> > do have the monitor g
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 16:33, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>> Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett said:
>> > Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
>> > a monitor with a different DPI. What do we do then?
>>
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett said:
> > Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
> > a monitor with a different DPI. What do we do then?
>
> I would wager that the majority of Fedora systems are sin
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett said:
> Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
> a monitor with a different DPI. What do we do then?
I would wager that the majority of Fedora systems are single monitor
(or, in the case of notebooks, single monitor much of the t
On 10/06/2011 09:45 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 03:57:38PM +0200, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
>
>> But maybe a quick 'I know I have a 13.3" widescreen laptop, you know the
>> resolution, just make things work' should work for the single-screen
>> case (esp if we stick to
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 03:57:38PM +0200, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
> But maybe a quick 'I know I have a 13.3" widescreen laptop, you know the
> resolution, just make things work' should work for the single-screen
> case (esp if we stick to certain target DPIs as Adam suggested). One
> shouldn
On 10/05/2011 07:49 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> But what about the single monitor case? Let's go back to your Vaio. It's
> got a high DPI screen, so let's adjust to that. Now you're happy. Right
> up until you plug in an external monitor and now when you run any
> applications on the external d
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 01:13:21PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
>
> Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
>
> > This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
> > size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
> > out so the text
Em Qui, 2011-10-06 às 08:21 -0400, Simo Sorce escreveu:
> On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:06 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> > Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:44, Simo Sorce a écrit :
> >
> > > Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
> > > 2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
>
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:13 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
>
> > This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
> > size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
> > out so the text is half t
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:06 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
> Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:44, Simo Sorce a écrit :
>
> > Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
> > 2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
>
> Unfortunately, when you get into situations with more than 150
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
> This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
> size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
> out so the text is half the size. It doesn't look the same as your
> original text.
>
> Rend
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:56, Simo Sorce a écrit :
> At least untill all rendering is done with something like svg and not
> with absolute pixel values this is just going to be a very bad
> experience.
How is rendering ever going to go be done with something like svg when no one
bothers with the
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:44, Simo Sorce a écrit :
> Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
> 2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
Unfortunately, when you get into situations with more than 150% difference in
pixel densities between displays (as we've been creep
Dne 5.10.2011 21:56, Simo Sorce napsal(a):
> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:49 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
>>> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> So,
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 23:11 +0200, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> Matthew Garrett writes:
>
> > We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
> > applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
> > be displaying on both displays at once.
>
> >From a technology
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 11:11:38PM +0200, Benny Amorsen wrote:
> Matthew Garrett writes:
>
> > We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
> > applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
> > be displaying on both displays at once.
>
> >From a tec
Matthew Garrett writes:
> We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
> applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
> be displaying on both displays at once.
>From a technology viewpoint, that is actually theoretically easy to
handle on modern ha
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 01:34:43PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> I'm just saying it would probably pay off to put some thought *now* into
> how to manage things when higher resolution displays become so prevalent
> that they can't be ignored, rather than desperately scrambling to catch
> up when
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 21:31 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 12:31:50PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
> > everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
> > everything really properly so tha
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 12:31:50PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
> everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
> everything really properly so that all displays correct report their
> size and all desktops actually
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:56 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > > Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
> > > 2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
> >
> > If they're sufficiently different in DPI, sure. Or would you really want
> > everything to suddenly become twice
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:49 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> > >
> > > > So, ok, now you have some belief about the DP
Adam Williamson writes:
> [...]
> But that's still going to require some kind of sensible handling of the
> case where one monitor is roughly 100dpi and the other is roughly
> 200dpi, unless we simply say 'you can't do that, all your displays have
> to be in the same DPI Category'.
Perhaps the s
On 10/05/11 12:31, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
> everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
> everything really properly so that all displays correct report their
> size and all desktops actually do resolution independe
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> >
> > > So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
> > > dual head, you've got two. Unless
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
>
> > So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
> > dual head, you've got two. Unless they match you're screwed - there's no
> > magic way to get a
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
> So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
> dual head, you've got two. Unless they match you're screwed - there's no
> magic way to get applications to reflow text just because you've moved
> the window b
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 13:50 -0400, Peter Jones wrote:
> On 10/05/2011 12:26 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
> > takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
> > regretfully explain that the hardware suc
On 10/05/2011 12:26 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
> takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
> regretfully explain that the hardware sucks when this causes problems,
> not engineer hacks and bodges to
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 09:26:59AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
> takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
> regretfully explain that the hardware sucks when this causes problems,
> not engineer h
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 10:49 -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
> > > Windows used to have a gui that would show a ruler on your monitor and
> > > say "hold a real ruler up to this and slide the slider until its the
> > > same size." Given what's been said about how windows handles DPI I can
> > > only w
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 10:30 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 19:05 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> > 96dpi, however, is almost *never* correct, is it? So just taking a
> > hardcoded number that Microsoft happened to pick a decade ago is hardly
> > improving matters.
>
> The X
Adam Williamson wrote on Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 07:08:33PM -0700:
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 16:24 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> > > For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
> > > users test a couple of possibl
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 19:05 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> 96dpi, however, is almost *never* correct, is it? So just taking a
> hardcoded number that Microsoft happened to pick a decade ago is hardly
> improving matters.
The X default used to be 72dpi. Maybe it'll be something else in the
futur
On Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08:33 PM Adam Williamson wrote:
> > Windows used to have a gui that would show a ruler on your monitor and
> > say "hold a real ruler up to this and slide the slider until its the
> > same size." Given what's been said about how windows handles DPI I can
> > only won
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 16:24 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> > For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
> > users test a couple of possible dpi values might be useful (for those
> > users so inclined). It does
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 19:05 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Is it
> really a great idea, for instance, if we put Fedora 17 on a 1024x600, 7"
> tablet and it comes up with zonking huge fonts all over the place?
Er - s/zonking huge/ridiculously tiny/, of course.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Commun
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
> I'm going to limit myself to observing that "greatly" is a matter of
> opinion, and that in order to be really useful you'd need some way of
> communicating "I punted" to the desktop.
>
> Beyond that, sure, pick a heuristic, accept that it'
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 21:03 +0100, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
> > I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
> > Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
> > with a URL from here out. (As
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
> For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
> users test a couple of possible dpi values might be useful (for those
> users so inclined). It does have to cross a good chunk of the stack to
> work well, and see
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Camilo Mesias wrote:
> Thanks for the explanation... There is an alternative to endless
> explanation - roll out your best effort at a heuristic and let the
> crowd contribute to an ever growing set of exceptions.
Well, actually, people complain a lot more than wha
Hi,
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
> I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
> Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
> with a URL from here out. (As always, use of the second person "you"
> herein is plural, not singu
Ordinary users don't care about DPI any more than they do about what number
point or pixel size their favorite font size is.
Why can't something akin to
http://people.gnome.org/~federico/news-2007-01.html be employed so that no
one gets initialized or stuck with unsuitable sizes?
Snap the resu
On 10/04/2011 01:24 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
>
> I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
> Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
> with a URL from here out. (As always, use of the second person "you"
> herein is plural, not singular.)
Thanks for writing this up! It was good info.
On Oct 4, 2011 7:55 PM, "Adam Jackson" wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
>
> > Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
> > log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_ at lea
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
> Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
> log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_ at least, that we
> do have the monitor geometry available from DDC or EDIC, and obviously
> it is trivia
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