Hi,
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
>
> > I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
> >
> > I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
>
> I'm hereby proposing the following genera
This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:14:30PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> > > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 04:32:08PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > It often can, though. You can't really tell
On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 12:14:30PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 04:32:08PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It often can, though. You can't really tell if the firmware for your
> > > > network
> > > > card is
This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 04:32:08PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> > >
> > > It often can, though. You can't really tell if the firmware for your
> > > network
> > > card is using DMA to send away your private data in unaccounted frames.
> >
> > O
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 04:32:08PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> >
> > It often can, though. You can't really tell if the firmware for your
> > network
> > card is using DMA to send away your private data in unaccounted frames.
>
> Of course you can. Adding paranoid fantasies to the debate does
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 04:39:04PM +, Stephen Gran wrote:
> This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> > If we get closer to the free side, and provide a 100% free main like we
> > used to,
>
> When precisely was that?
Yeah, it's funny. We never did. Let us say, like we used to pro
I know there's already a good number of seconds, but I said I'd second
this proposal, so here I do: I second the proposal below.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
>
> > I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
>
* Peter Palfrader ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [081114 21:01]:
> On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
>
> > I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
> >
> > I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
>
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
This one time, at band camp, Peter Palfrader said:
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code that is run on the host CPU.
> |
> | Unfortunately such firmware often is distr
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code that
This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> If we get closer to the free side, and provide a 100% free main like we used
> to,
When precisely was that?
--
-
| ,''`.Stephen Gran |
This one time, at band camp, Robert Millan said:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:29:20AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > > - code uploaded into another cpu (a device cpu, not a SMP cpu of some
> > > kind) does not run in the same memory space, and can thus not impact
> > > the main softwa
On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Kurt Roeckx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does this mean that even if the blob is GPL'd, we don't need sources
> for it?
That sounds like it would be a GPL violation.
--
bye,
pabs
http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
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On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 06:54:52PM +0100, Frans Pop wrote:
> On Friday 14 November 2008, you wrote:
> > I believe Debian has
> > remained important over time because, despite our various social
> > failings, they *respect* our ideology.
>
> And I believe that Debian is becoming increasingly margin
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> | Therefore the Debian project resolves that
> | a) firmware in Debian does not have to come with source. While we do
> | prefer firmware that comes with source and documentation we will not
> | require it,
> | b) we howe
- "Charles Plessy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> can the secretaries state whether it is a supermajority option or
> not?
>
> If yes, how will we deal with it after it is voted? The GR will not be a
> foundation document but will rule over one. It will be hidden between many
> other GRs, which
Le Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader a écrit :
>
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code
In gmane.linux.debian.devel.vote, Peter Palfrader wrote:
>
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
>| Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
>| hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
>| It is not code that is run on
On Fri, 14, Nov, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader spoke thus..
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not cod
* Peter Palfrader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-11-14 21:12]:
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code that is run
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 09:12:25PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
>
>I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
>| Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
>| hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
>| It is not code that is
Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
>
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code that is run on the host CPU.
> |
> | Unfortunat
Hi,
On Friday 14 November 2008 21:12, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
> | Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded into
> | hardware components in order to make the component function properly.
> | It is not code that is run
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
>
> I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
I'm hereby proposing the following general resolution:
| Firmware is data such as microcode or lookup tables that is loaded
- "Frans Pop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And I believe that Debian is becoming increasingly marginal because users
> are driven away to other distros. Sure, it is nice that a lot of those
> users go to derived distros instead of "real" competitors, but IMO it is
> still unhealthy if Debia
On Friday 14 November 2008, you wrote:
> But you have to see that castrating the ideals of the project is just
> as damaging as these distribution problems are. I believe Debian has
> remained important over time because, despite our various social
> failings, they *respect* our ideology. We remain
- "Frans Pop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm certainly in favor of Debian going in this direction. Ideals are fine,
> but castrating the distribution for them is taking things to far. IMO we
> can still strife and work to have more source made available to the
> community without alienati
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Robert Millan wrote:
> May I suggest "so-called \"blobs\"" or some indication that "blob" is an
> informal term?
Informal like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_blob ?
- From there it appears it is better described as 'binary blob' in order
not to
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 04:56:38PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> >
> > "Firmware is data [...]"
>
> Firmware is like porn, I know it when I see it. :)
>
> This isn't meant to be an exact definition, but more of a guideline.
> That being said, if s/data/software/ makes you happy then we can do
On Fri, 14 Nov 2008, Frans Pop wrote:
> > | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed
> > | to be run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already required at
> > | install time in order to use network or storage devices.
>
> "Firmware is data [...]"
Firmware is
On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 12:29:20AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> > - code uploaded into another cpu (a device cpu, not a SMP cpu of some
> > kind) does not run in the same memory space, and can thus not impact
> > the main software running on the host CPU.
>
> Impacting other
Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
I'm certainly in favor of Debian going in this direction. Ideals are fine,
but castrating the distribution for them is taking things to far. IMO we
can still strife and work to have more source made available to the
c
This one time, at band camp, Peter Palfrader said:
>
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
> | run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already required at install
> time
> | in order to use network or storage devices.
> |
> | Unfortunately such fir
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Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> -- [Forward] -
>> From: Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:01:13 +0100
>
>> - code uploaded into another cpu (a device cpu, not a SMP cpu of
On Thu, Nov 13 2008, Peter Samuelson wrote:
> -- [Forward] -
> From: Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:01:13 +0100
> - code uploaded into another cpu (a device cpu, not a SMP cpu of some
> kind) does not run i
Peter Palfrader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
>
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not
> | designed to be run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already
> | required at install time in order to use network or sto
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Hi,
I'd second the proposal as quoted below.
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
> | run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already required at install
> time
> | in order to use network or storage
-- [Forward] -
From: Sven Luther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:01:13 +0100
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 01:43:32PM -0600, Peter Samuelson wrote:
>
>
> [Johannes Wiedersich]
> > I would propose to create a new section of the arch
[Johannes Wiedersich]
> I would propose to create a new section of the archive, called
> 'sourceless' or such. Stuff within this archive doesn't have full
> sources. It is legally distributable and follows the DFSG with the
> only exception of missing sources. On top of the DFSG it is required
>
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 04:20:33PM +0100, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
> * Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-11-12 15:29]:
> > For example, if you want to install Debian on an NSLU, the only
> > difficulty is finding the unofficial D-I images that include
> > non-free firmware. And even that can
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 03:49:44PM +0100, Patrick Schoenfeld wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 03:29:30PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> > For example, if you want to install Debian on an NSLU, the only difficulty
> > is
> > finding the unofficial D-I images that include non-free firmware. And even
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Ean Schuessler wrote:
> "Johannes Wiedersich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> I would propose to create a new section of the archive, called
>> 'sourceless' or such. Stuff within this archive doesn't have full
>> sources. It is legally distributable
- "Johannes Wiedersich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would propose to create a new section of the archive, called 'sourceless'
> or such.
> Stuff within this archive doesn't have full sources. It is legally
> distributable and
> follows the DFSG with the only exception of missing sources.
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
> | run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already required at install
> time
> | in order to use network or storage devices.
Thanks for this proposal, I'd support
- "Peter Palfrader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> c) such firmware can and should be part of our official installation media.
We've seen a trend towards organizations building on Debian as a foundation for
various special purpose distributions. Debian adds a lot of value as a starting
point
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Steve McIntyre wrote:
> Absolutely. I'm looking into creating such "unofficial" CDs already as
> part of the regular builds.
> I think I agree with the suggestion of creating a new archive section
> for firmware - packages that are acknowledged to no
* Steve McIntyre ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [081112 16:31]:
> I think I agree with the suggestion of creating a new archive section
> for firmware - packages that are acknowledged to not meet the same
> standards as main, but checked so that we know they're still legally
> shippable by default on official
ke, 2008-11-12 kello 15:41 +, Steve McIntyre kirjoitti:
> I think I agree with the suggestion of creating a new archive section
> for firmware - packages that are acknowledged to not meet the same
> standards as main, but checked so that we know they're still legally
> shippable by default on o
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 04:20:33PM +0100, Martin Michlmayr wrote:
>* Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-11-12 15:29]:
>> For example, if you want to install Debian on an NSLU, the only
>> difficulty is finding the unofficial D-I images that include
>> non-free firmware. And even that can be i
* Robert Millan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2008-11-12 15:29]:
> For example, if you want to install Debian on an NSLU, the only
> difficulty is finding the unofficial D-I images that include
> non-free firmware. And even that can be improved. They could be
> linked from the main website, and integrated
Hi,
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 03:29:30PM +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
> For example, if you want to install Debian on an NSLU, the only difficulty is
> finding the unofficial D-I images that include non-free firmware. And even
> that can be improved. They could be linked from the main website, and
Hi Peter,
As much as I respect the legitimacy of your proposal, I think it is overkill
to use a GR for that. Let me explain...
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:14:10PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> By excluding such firmware from Debian we exclude
> | users that require such devices from installing
On Wed, 12 Nov 2008, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
> | run on the host CPU.
A postscript file isn't firmware simply because you can upload it to a
printer.
So, maybe slightly better:
| Firmware is data that is loaded into
Hi,
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 12:14:10PM +0100, Peter Palfrader wrote:
> I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
>
> I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
>
> | Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
> | run on the ho
I so didn't want to get into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
I'm considering formally proposing this GR (option):
| Firmware is data that is uploaded to hardware components, not designed to be
| run on the host CPU. Often this firmware is already required at install time
| in order to use
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