On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 09:38:53AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
> * Matthew Palmer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040808 11:10]:
> > From the 2004.04.05 version of the keyring, I count 927 unique people or
> > unknowns (there are several "might be people, might be 'bots'"). Wandering
> > through the name list
* Matthew Palmer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040808 11:10]:
> From the 2004.04.05 version of the keyring, I count 927 unique people or
> unknowns (there are several "might be people, might be 'bots'"). Wandering
> through the name list, I count 122 "might not be male" and 4 "almost
> certainly female". T
On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 09:35:25AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > On the flip side, how about contributions from people who may
> > not participate if the culture turned too touchy feely and
> > sickeningly sweet?
>
> Yep, I think it behoves us to consider that as well. As I said in a
>
On 2004-08-08 05:27:15 +0100 Peter Samuelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[MJ Ray]
Is any discussion involving women ever off-topic for -women,
actually?
Actually, yes. The list topic is more specific than just "involving
women" or "touching on both women and Debian". The focus of the list,
an
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> All in all, it is a fairly small difference statistically, I will grant you.
Earlier you had written:
> Because there's a whole pile of potential contributors out there that
> we're almost certainly driving away.
I did that research to determine the v
On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 12:16:37AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> > As to the barriers to involvement in Debian by women, it's pretty obvious
> > that our gender participation ratio is decidedly different to that of the IT
> > industry in general, let al
>
> Yep, I think it behoves us to consider that as well. As I said in a
> previous message
> (http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2004/08/msg00053.html), we should
> examine what changes to the project's culture need to take place, and
> whether those would be net-beneficial. It might turn ou
[MJ Ray]
> I look forward to seeing threads from -women redirected to -project,
> -newmaint and others, but it's not happened much yet AFAICT.
I look forward to it too. I don't think anyone wants to create a
private enclave whose members never venture into the rest of Debian.
If certain people c
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> As to the barriers to involvement in Debian by women, it's pretty obvious
> that our gender participation ratio is decidedly different to that of the IT
> industry in general, let alone the general population. I believe (although
> I'd find it harder t
On 2004-08-08 01:21:54 +0100 Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I believe it to be useful to examine the issues raised and deal with
them if
the result would be of net benefit to the project.
This seems good, but it should happen in the usual debian forums as
far as possible.
As to
On 2004-08-07 22:24:12 +0100 Peter Samuelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[MJ Ray]
Are posts which should otherwise go to other lists accepted on -women
purely because they involve women? It looks that way from yesterday's
list description and past activity.
Is that your real concern? [...]
I
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 12:54:29PM -0400, Christopher M. Hagar wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:43:06 +1000
> Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The culture of the project may be causing us to drive away Africans and
> > Hindus, yes. If so, I think we should consider it's effect and wh
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:16:52PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:55:27PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >>The burden of evidence is on you. I'd like to see your proofs.
> >
> >How about statements from the people who have decided not to participate
> >because of the c
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:07:25PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:37:40PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >>Don't assume there are stairs preventing the wheel-chaired person from
> >>getting onto the basketball court; SHOW THEM to us. The fact that few
> >>wheel-chaired
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:13:31PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:49:35PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> >>Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >>> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:11:55 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> >> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> s
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 02:42:17PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> On 2004-08-07 13:11:55 +0100 Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >So you think that changing our culture to be less confrontational
> >would be
> >beneficial to encouraging participation by multiple groups?
> >Excellent.
>
> Y
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 04:32:06PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:55:27 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> >> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >> >>What is
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 04:26:01PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> Far as I can see, the mailing list has been created by a bunch of
> volunteers who have an itch to scratch; and while I may not always
> agree with the decisions taken, or the scoping of the effort, as
> always people who do the wo
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:55:27 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
>> >>What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian
>> >>(as a project
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:11:33 +0200, Michael Banck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> The free software world has always benefited from selection
>> pressure and competition between opposing solutions; when some
>> thing does not work as
[MJ Ray]
> Are posts which should otherwise go to other lists accepted on -women
> purely because they involve women? It looks that way from yesterday's
> list description and past activity.
Is that your real concern? You should breathe a sigh of relief when
you learn that the goals of the debia
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:55:27PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
The burden of evidence is on you. I'd like to see your proofs.
How about statements from the people who have decided not to participate
because of the culture? How many would convince you?
Our culture is our own. Every entity
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:49:35PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> > Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:37:40PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
Don't assume there are stairs preventing the wheel-chaired person from
getting onto the basketball court; SHOW THEM to us. The fact that few
wheel-chaired people are into playing basketball with normal people
Talk about language s
On 2004-08-07 18:54:18 +0100 David Nusinow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
[...] Think of it as a gateway list that
supplements, but does not replace, lists like -mentors. If you'd read
the
FAQ[0] you'd see that this is a goal of the -women project.
Are posts which should otherwise go to other l
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> The free software world has always benefited from selection
> pressure and competition between opposing solutions; when some thing
> does not work as you like, you are encouraged to change it to your
> liking, and if there
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 02:37:13PM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
> Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > who are saying that they want to get involved in Debian, but for various
> > reasons they don't feel comfortable doing so.
>
> Which are? Please post them here. If there are such problems
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:43:06 +1000
Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The culture of the project may be causing us to drive away Africans and
> Hindus, yes. If so, I think we should consider it's effect and whether
> we are losing something valuable from their lack of participation.
>
>
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:11:55 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
>
On 2004-08-07 13:11:55 +0100 Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So you think that changing our culture to be less confrontational
would be
beneficial to encouraging participation by multiple groups?
Excellent.
Yes, but I'd like to see metrics for this and the data gathered. We
can al
Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > It is fact, not evidence. You cannot conclude it comes from discrimination.
>
> You can't conclude it doesn't, either. We have several women on this list
I don't conclude anything because I can't get any evidence, and I'd
like to hear them from you.
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> >> Or is the contention that there is some barrier to involvement by
> >> women (an
On 2004-08-07 12:55:27 +0100 Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about statements from the people who have decided not to
participate
because of the culture? How many would convince you?
Is anyone planning to build data in a referenced way from these?
Otherwise, it feels like DDs
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >>What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
> >>project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
> >
> >Because there's a whole p
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> > > Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
> > > equal rights to males and women over the p
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 11:00:08PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:29:40 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> >> Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been
> >> giving equ
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:46:57PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
> >On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> >>Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
> >>equal rights to males
Selon Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> > Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
> > equal rights to males and women over the past years.
>
> The fact that our male / female participation ratio is
Selon Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Does it bother you that the Project seems to be predominantly
> Christian (as in most developers come from a Christian background)?
> Why not? Given that the project is a global one, don't you think
> Buddhists are under represented? Hindus?
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:29:40 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
>> Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been
>> giving equal rights to males and women over the past years.
> The fact that our male
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
>> > I hope that people won't feed the trolls and it results in debian
>> > doing something better to tackle inequali
On 2004-08-07 01:46:57 +0100 Jonathan Walther <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much lower
than even
the gender split in IT, let alone the wider community should be
enough.
That is
On 2004-08-07 02:40:17 +0100 Moray Allan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
While I'm not against a general 'equality' list, I don't think it
would
be a substitute for the debian-women list. I don't think it makes
sense
to lump together all underrepresented groups and assume that the
solutions to the
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 02:06:35PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> MJ Ray wrote:
> > To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
> > like debian-equality or debian-welcome
>
> You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of your
> message paints you as such
On 2004-08-06 21:37:46 +0100 Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Been busy, I'm moving. [...]
Is that explanation enough?
Yes. Sorry I missed that you were on vac.
It is refreshing to get a nice answer from someone involved with
debian-women. Thank you.
--
MJR/slefMy Opinion Only and not
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
Because there's a whole pile of potential contributors out there that we're
almost certainly driving awa
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male / female participati
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
> > I hope that people won't feed the
> > trolls and it results in debian doing something better to tackle
> > inequalities.
>
> What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
> Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
> equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much lower than even
the gender split in IT, let alo
No need to Cc: me. I'm subscribed.
MJ Ray wrote:
> The results seem to be selectively reported. Amaya, please publish the
> full returns, like you wrote you would.
Don't worry as soon as I get some spare time I will upload all the new
submissions I have been getting, and yours will be on top of t
MJ Ray wrote:
> Of course, my views have not appeared on
> http://debian-women.opensource-knowhow.com/supporters.html - it seems
> there are only positive views there, even if some mention other skews.
Been busy, I'm moving. I have a lot opf mail to be taken care of, and my
#1 priority is the supp
On 2004-08-06 19:06:35 +0100 Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
MJ Ray wrote:
To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with
something like
debian-equality or debian-welcome
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of
your
message paints you as such an j
Selon Daniel Ruoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 11:35, MJ Ray escreveu:
> > > against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
> > > posting
> > > in english there.
> > As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
> > only know my IRC nick's
On 2004-08-06 19:46:17 +0100 Daniel Ruoso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It seems that you are not aware that male or female is not a sex
matter,
but a gender matter (which is very much different). We are not talking
about sex, we are talking about equal rights to males and females.
(do you really
On Sex, 2004-08-06 at 16:09, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
> You just don't care about the problem that debian-women is trying to
> deal.
I think you're being over defensive. If I understood Jaldhar H. Vyas
right, I agree with him.
What I understand is: Debian (as a Project, in it's Social Contract or
Polic
On Sex, 2004-08-06 at 09:09, MJ Ray wrote:
> To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
> like debian-equality or debian-welcome, to try to get people active
> against discrimination rather than actively promoting blatent sexism.
I'm don't know how much the Debian gir
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
>
> This point was also made to me off-list. I don't have a good answer
> for it. However, some active people clearly want to work on this, so
> how do we make the best of it for debian? Clearly, "ignore it" can't
> be done now it is on lists.debian.org, IMO.
>
I
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
> This affirmation explain everything...
>
> You just don't care about the problem that debian-women is trying to
> deal.
>
Judging by where this seems to be going I probably don't--but forget that,
I'm still not clear on what exactly the problem is. You k
On 2004-08-06 18:47:51 +0100 Jaldhar H. Vyas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
This point was also made to me off-list. I don't have a good answer
for it. However, some act
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 15:58, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
> So we won't get viruses, have to pay lots of money or have to put up with
> unfixable bugs
>
> I think you're being rather presumptious about why "we" work with free
> software.
This affirmation explain everything...
You just don't ca
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
> Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 14:47, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
> > What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
> > project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
>
> For the same reason we work with free software.
>
So we won't
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 14:47, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
> What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
> project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
For the same reason we work with free software.
> As far as I can
> tell my microwave oven was made exclusively
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 11:35, MJ Ray escreveu:
> > against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
> > posting
> > in english there.
> As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
> only know my IRC nick's meaning in Icelandic.) Even if a man wanted to
> b
MJ Ray wrote:
> To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
> like debian-equality or debian-welcome
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of your
message paints you as such an jerk that it will be ignored.
--
see shy jo
signature.asc
Descri
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
> I hope that people won't feed the
> trolls and it results in debian doing something better to tackle
> inequalities.
>
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities? As far as I ca
On 2004-08-06 13:44:51 +0100 Pascal Hakim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...] Not only does it discriminates
against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
posting
in english there.
As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
only know my IRC nick's m
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:09:23PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> There are 3 questions in this email and a lot of explanation.
>
> When almost all of a population is divided into two classes,
> "postitive discrimination" in favour of one class is usually
> indistinguishable from "negative discriminatio
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:09:23PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
> I hope that people won't feed the trolls
I hope so, too.
End of Discussion.
Michael
69 matches
Mail list logo
