On debian-private I wrote:
> I recently had occasion to email to the #debian-devel chanops about
> the behaviour of a couple of people there. I found it difficult to
> find where to contact them; I ended up tracking down a subset of the
> email addresses via various resources including wiki pages
Hi Gunnar,
I just noticed that while I had read this reply, I hadn't acted upon it yet.
Op 26-11-13 14:40, Gunnar Wolf schreef:
> Thanks, Steve (and Wouter, of course). A very minor observation
> regarding ordering.
>
>>
>> # Debian Code of Conduct
>>
>> ## Be respectful
>>
>> In a project th
Followup-To: poster
Paul Tagliamonte dixit:
>"Valid" is a subjective term :)
Mh, true. Anyway, I’m not using that signature any more,
and I’m reading most Debian lists through GMane anyway,
*and* (yes Enrico) I’ve re-read the DMUP (though that one
is shaky too, but I understand the spirit). EOT.
]] Thorsten Glaser
> >«Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
>
> See. This isn’t software. It is a perfectly valid string of
> Unicode characters.
You might want to read http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23 . Intent and
context matter.
I find your continued lack of u
On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 09:47:57AM -0500, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> While I personally find this cute hack hilarious, this defence is a bit
> shaky. It'd be like saying SQL injection is just a valid string of
> Unicode characters, or that buffer overflows are just lots of valid
> data.
>
> "Valid
On Mon, Dec 02, 2013 at 12:34:24PM +, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> >«Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
>
> See. This isn’t software. It is a perfectly valid string of
> Unicode characters.
While I personally find this cute hack hilarious, this defence is a bit
sha
This one time, at band camp, Thorsten Glaser said:
> >«Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
>
> See. This isn’t software. It is a perfectly valid string of
> Unicode characters.
You clearly missed the "editorial changes" vote.
--
---
>«Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
See. This isnât software. It is a perfectly valid string of
Unicode characters.
bye,
//mirabilos
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Tollef Fog Heen dijo [Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:12:25AM +0100]:
> > > You mean you were using Debian resources to spread malware, and it seems
> >
> > You’re ridiculous. That’s not malware and cannot spread either
>
> «Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
> computer op
Wouter Verhelst writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> [some stuff]
I would just like to say:
Well done, Wouter, for such an excellent and mature response to a
difficult situation. You are setting a good example for us all.
> They have been rejected, because I was no
Enrico Zini schrieb am Friday, den 29. November 2013:
> On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:19:57PM +0100, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
>
> > > > Following the Code of Conduct I will probably be punished for making
> > > > jokes about the different gender, different religion, different
> > > > political opinion
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 12:19:57PM +0100, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> > > Following the Code of Conduct I will probably be punished for making
> > > jokes about the different gender, different religion, different
> > > political opinion, and maybe even different OS. Where is the border,
> > > where i
]] Thorsten Glaser
> On Thu, 28 Nov 2013, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
>
> > You mean you were using Debian resources to spread malware, and it seems
>
> You’re ridiculous. That’s not malware and cannot spread either
«Malware, short for malicious software, is software used to disrupt
computer operat
This is a great email, Wouter.
Thanks for your perseverance!
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fup2p
On Thu, 28 Nov 2013, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> You mean you were using Debian resources to spread malware, and it seems
You’re ridiculous. That’s not malware and cannot spread either
(except like the famous “hi, I’m a signature virus, copy me to
your .sig to help me spread”, are you forbidd
Norbert Preining writes:
> On Do, 28 Nov 2013, Brian Gupta wrote:
>> but I'll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, which
>> may help put things in perspective.:
> [...]
>> Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we
>> replaced the phrase “politica
On Do, 28 Nov 2013, Brian Gupta wrote:
> but I'll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, which
> may help put things in perspective.:
[...]
> Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we
> replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could wit
Brian Gupta writes:
> I think you may be mistaking "Unix tradition" [1] for "Troll culture" [2],
> but I'll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, which
> may help put things in perspective.:
> I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday
> which in
Brian Gupta writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> I'll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, which
> may help put things in perspective.:
>
> I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough)
> yesterday which include
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 6:19 AM, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2013, Ian Jackson wrote:
>
>> Inevitably, the CoC will be voted on in a GR. The right time to
>> continue this dogpile is in the vote.
>
> Mh… we’ll see how that turns out.
>
>> Norbert Prei
]] Thorsten Glaser
> This is true. While many of such jokes are probably something
> undesirable, some people go actively against any and all jokes
> of that matter (I’ve had that Arabic script crashing Apple’s
> text thingy in my .sig for a while, and got told off for it
> very brusquely, so I h
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Inevitably, the CoC will be voted on in a GR. The right time to
> continue this dogpile is in the vote.
Mh… we’ll see how that turns out.
> Norbert Preining writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> > Why don't we try
Hi Norbert,
Op 27-11-13 10:50, Norbert Preining schreef:
[...]
> In all these emails the attacks were directed *at* me from main
> proponents or supporters of the CoC, except Wouter.
Only through severe self-restraint. Your tone is fairly harsh, and I can
assure you that it's very difficult for m
My last post, I swear.
So, three or so people have came to me with this, so I'd like to clarify
exactly what I was intending - because, frankly, every person that yells
at me (and you all really should, please keep doing that) is proving the
point I was trying to make. Namely (full mail below):
>
Norbert Preining writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> And exactely this is what I meant: Based on the Code of Conduct
> I immediately got threatening emails by cc-ing the listmaster
> to create the atmosphere of warning, and this was sent by a
> prominent memb
Hi Steve,
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Steve Langasek wrote:
> is not a difficult concept to grasp, and I think your protestations here are
> nothing but an excuse for ignoring the obvious social norms.
What is "obvious" to you probably not necessarily "obvious" for me.
In other circumstances I would call
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I think a better statement is that Debian tries to give decision-making
> power to the people, selected from among those who are already involved in
> the project, who have volunteered to do the implementation work.
.. and are eager to obtain these positio
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 04:29:33PM -0500, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:21:21AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> You're not being productive and you're really showing the type of
> behavior that the CoC works to prevent.
+1
Thanks to all those brave people working on CoC wh
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 06:07:58PM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Debian is not a meritocracy. Real meritocracies are vanishingly rare,
> and certainly no technical organization that is as lacking in
> diversity as Debian is should claim to be a meritocracy. Simple
> demographics show that it's not.
Wouter Verhelst writes:
> Second, and more to the point that I was trying to make, if indeed you
> need social and writing skills to be able to reach positions of power in
> Debian, then it's reasonable to assume people with the kind of behaviour
> this code of conduct wants to encourage would be
Op 27-11-13 03:07, Russ Allbery schreef:
> Wouter Verhelst writes:
>
>> I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if someone in Debian
>> acquires a lot of power. We are very much a meritocracy; this means you
>> can't acquire power without a lot of hard work. Once you've done the
>> hard w
Wouter Verhelst writes:
> I also don't think it's necessarily a bad thing if someone in Debian
> acquires a lot of power. We are very much a meritocracy; this means you
> can't acquire power without a lot of hard work. Once you've done the
> hard work, you get to decide how you do it, which could
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:52:10AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > > What does
> > > "poor behaviour"
> > > mean?
> > That which is socially disruptive.
> You exchange one undefined term against another, but that doesn't
> change the underlying problem, which is, *what* is socially
> disrupt
On Wed, 27 Nov 2013 06:52:10 +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> You exchange one undefined term against another, but that doesn't
> change the underlying problem, which is, *what* is socially
> disruptive?
[..]
> The whole point is that all these pseudo definitions of normality
> are just fake, fak
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> Just because you do not write these words doesn't mean you don't exhibit
> them.
A great example exhibiting the undefinedness and inconsistency
of the CoC. Opinions vary to wide.
I remain with
Assume good faith
and wish you a nice day
Norbert
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 07:01:24AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> In contrast to you I have not spoken out words like
> "insult"
> or
> "poor behaviour"
Just because you do not write these words doesn't mean you don't exhibit
them.
I'm out of this nonsense, i've got productive thin
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Paul Tagliamonte wrote:
> You see how even this can be used as an insult or to draw comparisons?
> Please don't continue to defend such poor behavior.
Read my answer to Wouter. I hope it helps you to understand my points,
even if you don't like them.
In contrast to you I have
On Mi, 27 Nov 2013, Norbert Preining wrote:
> > crazy comparisons of Debian to the Third Reich, and insinuations that
>
> Huu, where? Do you know meaning of the word "Gedankenexperiment"?
Sorry, forgot the link,
Merry-Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gedankenexperiment
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:54:22AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Huu, where? Do you know meaning of the word "Gedankenexperiment"?
> If not, then why do you attack me?
As a "Gedankenexperiment", if you were to stop posting insane things,
we'd all be happier.
You see how even this can be used
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:21:38PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Op 26-11-13 11:21, Cyril Brulebois schreef:
> > Steve Langasek (2013-11-26):
> [...]
> >> Note that many of our Contributors are not native english speakers or
> > English, I suppose?
> I fall in the category of "not native" her
> crazy comparisons of Debian to the Third Reich, and insinuations that
Huu, where? Do you know meaning of the word "Gedankenexperiment"?
If not, then why do you attack me?
(Hang-over email maybe?)
Norbert
PREINING, Norber
Hi Wouter,
thanks for your reasonable answer, very much welcome in the
bunch of unreasonable on and off list answers.
Of course we can continue this discussion about words forever,
and I will do it another round, but probably that is the last.
> > What does
> > "poor behaviour"
> > mean?
>
On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 4:21 PM, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>>> Note that many of our Contributors are not native english speakers or
>>
>> English, I suppose?
>
> I fall in the category of "not native" here, but so do you ;-)
>
> I thought it was supposed to be lower case, but I could be mistaken. A
On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 06:21:21AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> Lalalalala singing my song of sarcasm that is vital in Viennese life,
> even if people just don't get it, hahahaha.
Uh. When I first awoke, hazy from a night of late drinking, I assumed I
had slept directly through christmas (imag
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Sune Vuorela wrote:
> Last time i felt like speaking up against poor behaviour in debian was
> when this was posted:
>
> http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01138.html
Hahahhahaha, and that is the reason why I consider a code of conduct
ridiculous. If statements li
Op 26-11-13 11:21, Cyril Brulebois schreef:
> Steve Langasek (2013-11-26):
[...]
>> Note that many of our Contributors are not native english speakers or
>
> English, I suppose?
I fall in the category of "not native" here, but so do you ;-)
I thought it was supposed to be lower case, but I cou
On 2013-11-26, Norbert Preining wrote:
> What does
> "poor behaviour"
> mean?
Last time i felt like speaking up against poor behaviour in debian was
when this was posted:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01138.html
/Sune
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Hi Norbert,
Op 26-11-13 15:07, Norbert Preining schreef:
> Hi,
>
>> but even so, remain respectful. Disagreement is no excuse for poor
>> behaviour or personal attacks, and a community in which people feel
>> threatened is not a healthy community.
>
> What does
> "poor behaviour"
> mean
Op 26-11-13 07:37, Steve Langasek schreef:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:39:32AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
>> Op 08-11-13 23:30, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
>>> Op 05-11-13 16:25, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
>>> [...draft CoC...]
>
>>> To avoid spamming this list with one draft after another, I've pu
Hi,
> but even so, remain respectful. Disagreement is no excuse for poor
> behaviour or personal attacks, and a community in which people feel
> threatened is not a healthy community.
What does
"poor behaviour"
mean?
What does
"person attacks"
mean?
Regarding this:
> Note t
Thanks, Steve (and Wouter, of course). A very minor observation
regarding ordering.
>
> # Debian Code of Conduct
>
> ## Be respectful
>
> In a project the size of Debian, inevitably there will be people with
> whom you may disagree, or find it difficult to cooperate. Accept that,
> but eve
Steve Langasek (2013-11-26):
> For a full week of that two-week period, alioth was completely down,
> so this draft was inaccessible. This is normally the least of the
> reasons why I would argue that the full text of drafts should be
> posted to the mailing list for discussion, instead of referr
On Fri, Nov 22, 2013 at 12:39:32AM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> Op 08-11-13 23:30, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
> > Op 05-11-13 16:25, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
> > [...draft CoC...]
> > To avoid spamming this list with one draft after another, I've put my
> > current draft in a git repository which
Op 08-11-13 23:30, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
> Op 05-11-13 16:25, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
> [...draft CoC...]
>
> To avoid spamming this list with one draft after another, I've put my
> current draft in a git repository which people can now find at
>
> http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=users/wo
Op 05-11-13 16:25, Wouter Verhelst schreef:
[...draft CoC...]
To avoid spamming this list with one draft after another, I've put my
current draft in a git repository which people can now find at
http://anonscm.debian.org/gitweb/?p=users/wouter/coc.git;a=blob;f=coc.markdown
This will be updated a
Wouter Verhelst writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> But then again, the DPL does already have the responsibility to take
> decisions "which are consistent with the consensus of the opinions of
> the Developers" (§5.3 of the constitution). I guess I'm
Op 06-11-13 15:13, Ian Jackson schreef:
> Wouter Verhelst writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
>> Op 05-11-13 19:47, Ian Jackson schreef:
>>> I would suggest that the GR should explicitly say that the DPL is
>>> empowered to make changes to the Code
Wouter Verhelst writes ("Re: Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> Op 05-11-13 19:47, Ian Jackson schreef:
> > I would suggest that the GR should explicitly say that the DPL is
> > empowered to make changes to the Code of Conduct according to the
> > usual process fo
Op 05-11-13 19:47, Ian Jackson schreef:
> Wouter Verhelst writes ("Code of Conduct: picking up"):
>> Anyway. The story so far:
>> - I posted a draft update of the code of conduct to this list in may[1],
>> upon which a short discussion was started
>> - It was suggested that the draft wasn't ambit
Wouter Verhelst writes ("Code of Conduct: picking up"):
> Anyway. The story so far:
> - I posted a draft update of the code of conduct to this list in may[1],
> upon which a short discussion was started
> - It was suggested that the draft wasn't ambitious enough, so I wrote a
> much more ambiti
On Tue, Nov 05, 2013 at 04:25:21PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> I'd really like to avoid that this were to go down in history as another
> one of my failed projects, so I'm going to try to get it finished ASAP,
> and then propose a GR on the subject.
I love the draft, and I'd be happy to second
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