On 18 April 2018 at 23:08, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
> happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B was
> offended, how do we get A and B to unders
Well, this conversation that is very important and relevant for me,
reaches me in a bad moment. So expuse my slow replies, please.
On 18/04/18 17:17, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
>> "Debian emotional support group&q
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:46:03PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> If there would be one clear rule, I´d say: Never ever attack a person.
> Harmlessness with each other goes a long, long way.
>
> Wrongdoing someone who probably did something that did not serve the
> project or another person
Colin Watson - 19.04.18, 01:42:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem
> > that possibly would have to be removed from the project?
> >
> > If so I heavily disagree with that.
>
> It's an action
Dear fellow developers,
> > That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas:
>
> What about [..]
I would agree that the current name for the Anti-Harrassment team
is sub-optimal and that names & words are uniquely powerful tools
at our disposal.
I can think of many historical examples in Debia
On 15011 March 1977, Ian Jackson wrote:
> * Where appropriate, recommend action to: DAM, TC, listmaster, IRC
>operators, DPL. Information about the situation would be provided
>by the disputes team to the gatekeeper team; but the gatekeeper
>team would not be expected to make its own
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong
> > name for a team that deals with this.
>
> That's certainly true. I thought of these ideas:
What about def...@debian.org ?
You write to them when you are about to explode and nee
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 09:28:44PM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Did I get this right that you think that a person can be a problem that
> possibly would have to be removed from the project?
>
> If so I heavily disagree with that.
It's an action the project has had to take a few times befor
Hi Tincho,
> Currently, it can only give recommendations, but it is not void
Mm, but just to be 100% clear, the team could naturally be granted
additional powers — we need not consider the status quo to be the
permanent state of affairs.
(It could also be renamed too but as you can see from else
Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 19:23:
> The answer is, carrot: advertising that the alternative route has a
> possibility of delivering something like what an angry person actually
> thinks they want - punishment for the wrongdoer.
>
> And, of course, stick: if you post to d-devel anyway then your own
>
Ian Jackson - 18.04.18, 18:17:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
>
> I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
> the very least I need to be much c
Lars Wirzenius - 18.04.18, 15:08:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with
> > these issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt,
Gunnar Wolf writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> But my critique to Ian's original point stands: As long as the people
> involved in said "hard" social interactions post their messages to
> debian-devel or debian-whatever, no conflict-preven
El 18 de abril de 2018 17:59:38 CEST, Gunnar Wolf escribió:
>Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]:
>> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with
>these
>> > issues.
>>
>> Most of the prob
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 17:17 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
>
> I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
> the very least
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 05:17:10PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> This group would:
> * Write and publish guidelines for how to behave
[...]
> * The new group would have a foundational document which would
>explicitly give it authority to do all of the above.
this would be horrible. we are *di
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:55:03 +0300, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > > This implies to me that, at the least, "anti-harassment" is the wrong
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> "Debian emotional support group", maybe.
I find this suggestion very surprising, possibly even insulting. At
the very least I need to be much clearer.
> But maybe wait with the naming until there'
On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Ian Jackson wrote:
> 2. You are suggesting mediation.
Yes. It has been my experience that many of the occasional flareups in
Debian have at their root a failure of communication between one or more
parties which has been escalated instead of mediated.
> Mediation is certain
Lars Wirzenius dijo [Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 04:08:24PM +0300]:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> > I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
> > issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the so
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 10:56:41AM -0400, Michael Stone wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> >>Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 03:51:48PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
happening. The sit
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 15:51 +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> > Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> > to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
>
Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
> happening. The situations seem to be "A did something, and B wa
On 4/18/18, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>>> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
>>> issues.
>>
>> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
>>
On 4/18/18, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
>> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
>> issues.
>
> Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
> to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, b
On Wed, 2018-04-18 at 13:41 +0100, Martín Ferrari wrote:
> I believe that a-h is the natural starting point for dealing with these
> issues.
Most of the problems being discussed right now, and in general, seem
to be of the sort where feelings are hurt, but harassment isn't
happening. The situation
Hey, I have not been able to contribute properly to this thread so far,
for personal issues, but I would like to leave my 5¢.
On 18/04/18 12:49, Ian Jackson wrote:
> 6. You mention `anti-harassment' as a `lever of power" but of course
>anti-harassment have no inherent authority.
>
> IMO the
Don Armstrong writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > But that's my point: Do you want to solve that by adding... Yet
> > another contact point?
>
> Would it be OK if leader@ stayed the contact point, but
Chris Lamb writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> Hi Gunnar et al.,
> > [Ian:]
> > > An effective, reliable and unified disciplinary mechanism
> [..]
> > Thing is, I believe we have several bodies / mechanisms that partially
> > cover the
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]:
> > I also am reluctant to speak for Ian (!) but I believe he is making
> > the point that it is this very diversity of contact points that
> > could be part of the problem.
>
> But that's my point:
Chris Lamb dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 07:12:26PM +0100]:
> > FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
> > level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
> (...)
> This is made even more tragic in that I do not believe this is
> representative of wha
Hi Gunnar et al.,
> FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
> level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
I'm reluctant to jump so quickly to a meta dicussion but I think we
underestimate the subtle effects of such discussions. In particular
ho
Ian Jackson dijo [Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 01:39:07PM +0100]:
> We desperately need:
FSVO desperate. I agree we need it, but based on the project's current
level of discussions, I don't think it's a "desperate" situation.
> * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
>that i
Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) writes ("Re: Conflict escalation and discipline"):
> On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > We desperately need:
> >
> > * Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
> >that isn't debian-devel[
On 2018-04-17 14:39, Ian Jackson wrote:
We desperately need:
* Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1].
* An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that
(i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation wh
We desperately need:
* Somewhere people can escalate a dispute involving ill-feeling,
that isn't debian-devel[0] or the DPL[1].
* An effective, reliable and unified[2] disciplinary mechanism that
(i) promotes healing, apology and reconciliation where that is
feasible (ii) failing that,
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