Scripsit Benjamin Seidenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm wrote:
>> What does it even mean then? Which legal consequences does it have for
>> me to "acknowledge" that law? Why would the licensor want me to do so
>> - he must have _some_ purpose
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Please quote the section of the license that states that.
>> # LICENSEE AGREES THAT THE EXPORT OF GOODS AND/OR
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> You seem to be saying that I can "agree" with the law even though I
>> completely disagree with it
> Please quote the section of the license that states that.
#
Scripsit Stephen Gran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> This one time, at band camp, Henning Makholm said:
>> Why does the license say that it requires me to agree with something
>> if that is not what it means?
> It doesn't; you're misunderstanding their use of the w
's a simple statement of fact, and not a
> restriction.
Why does the license say that it requires me to agree with something
if that is not what it means?
--
Henning Makholm "It will be useful even at this
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> And if that fact is not agreeable to me, I may not copy the software?
> If you're unwilling to agree to truth statements, then yes, I'm entirely
> happy with you not
Scripsit Matthew Garrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> 7. LICENSEE AGREES THAT THE EXPORT OF GOODS AND/OR TECHNICAL DATA FROM THE
>>>UNITED STATES MAY REQUIRE SOME FORM OF EXPORT CONTROL LICENSE FROM THE
>>>
is mean that the license is only avaliable to those who agree
with the law? That would not be free.
--
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parts per billion range, but no luck still."
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> particular written offer in order to redeem it for the source code.
In order to _enforce_ the offer legally, one would of course need a
way to prove that it exists. But I am not sure that the vendor can
demand that such proof should take exactly the form of a photocopy of
the o
is official and endorsed by Debian. At least I
have seen no reports of such people. In particular, the original
poster clearly shows in his very first post that he is aware that the
contents is not the official version.
--
Henning Makholm "The Board views the endemic use of P
Scripsit Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2006 at 11:48:05PM +0200, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> > You never said how comes that something labeled "Debian" should *not* be
>> > available as free download, as long as debian.org says Debian
Scripsit Radu-Cristian FOTESCU <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Mon, 2006-07-17 at 19:54 +0200, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> You are the only one who thinks that a trademark is being misused.
>> You are wrong.
> You are not in court. Neither of us has the right to declare the other
s being acknowledged.
> Don't put this on users or customers.
If you don't like that special version, use something else. Nobody is
"putting" it on anybody.
> Owning a brand incurs some responsibilities.
Please provide legal references for the "responsibilities&qu
fs do not entitle them to
anything.
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Henning Makholm"What the hedgehog sang is not evidence."
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t seem that there is source in the iso9660
images they offer, which would also statisfy the license.
I downloaded an image to check, but most data are compressed in a
format (squashfs) that I don't have the tools to read.
--
Henning Makholm "Nemo enim fere saltat sobrius, nisi for
f trademark clauses is the one that says "you
lose your _copyright_ license if you use our trademark in ways we're
not happy with".
--
Henning Makholm "Jeg forstår mig på at anvende sådanne midler på
folks legemer, at jeg kan varme eller afkø
t your run-of-the-mill
copyleft construction.
--
Henning Makholm "No one seems to know what
distinguishes a bell from a whistle."
--
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nse is quite restrained
and is within what we generally consider fair self-defense.
--
Henning Makholm"... it cannot be told in his own
words because after September 11 he
forgot about keeping his
tention of risking the *legal* penalties for violating US embargo laws, I
> do *not* consider it free if a copyright holder tacks its own penalties on
> top of that.
Well said, and a good argument that my previous comments in this
thread actually miss the point. I stand correct
Scripsit Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Le dimanche 04 juin 2006 à 13:13 +0200, Henning Makholm a écrit :
>> >> > 6. Compliance with Laws; Non-Infringement. Recipient shall comply with
>> >> > all applicable laws and regulations in connection w
ng the decision to distribute their software in non-free
on the parts of the FAQ that directly contradicts the license is not a
reasonable position.
--
Henning Makholm"Nej, hvor er vi altså heldige! Længe
leve vor Buxgører Sansiba
Scripsit "Andrew Donnellan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 6/4/06, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Scripsit Josselin Mouette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Le vendredi 02 juin 2006 à 16:44 +0200, Francesco Poli a écrit :
>> >> > 6. C
oice of venue, which is non-free.
> I still think choice of venue is, at best, unenforceable outside the US.
Why do you think so?
> Not everyone here find such clauses to be non-free.
Those who don't are wrong.
--
Henning Makholm"There is
this is different from how BSD licenses require that
the BSD copyright blurb *itself* is retained with all derivates.
Everybody seems to agree that this does not make the BSD license
viral, and that a derivor is free to give fewer rights to his part of
the copyright in the derived work than the ori
Scripsit Wolfgang Lonien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Please CC me when answering; I'm not subscribed to Debian-legal.
What was your question? The three licenses you quote are all ordinary
3-clause BSD licenses, which are nice and free.
--
Henning Makholm "Th
s the distribution of the proprietary work does not use DRM. Strange).
--
Henning Makholm "The man who catches a meniningococcus is in
considerably less danger for his life, even without
chemotherapy, than meningococci with the bad luck to
orting to various
countries, too, even if you don't live there. Ordinarily you wouldn't
be arrested until you choose to travel to the U.S. voluntarily, but
there are some recent alleged precedents of U.S. operatives
extradicting supposed criminals from third-party countries.
the GPL requires a distributor to provide source code on demand
> for up to three years (see 3b) if the code is distrbuted in binary form.
No it does not. Read the GPL. Clause 3(b) is a non-free option but
fortunately the GPL also allows a distributor to use the free clause
3(a) instead.
--
Hennin
much rejoicing. Kudos to Gervase Markham.
--
Henning Makholm "We will discuss your youth another time."
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t the _only_
program that can edit XCF files is the Gimp, so by direct analogy one
should probably conclude that a format that can be edited by at least
one widespread free test editor qualifies as "suitable for revising
straightforwardly with generic text editor".
--
Henning Ma
o tiny that there is no creative expression inherent in it
(a few commands that essentially cannot be written in any other way),
then it is not subject to copyright, no matter what the author claims
or does not claim.
--
Henning Makholm "I can get fat! I can si
e a clarifying GR which gives the
developers the option of choosing betwen different interpretations.
I think that this very thread is an attempt to construct some
reasonably self-consistent interpretations that we can ask the
developers to decide between.
--
Henning Makholm &
f-contradictory.
If you have a fourth option that I have overlooked, I would love to
hear about it.
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Henning Makholm "Wir kommen nun ans Ziel unserer Ausführungen."
--
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Scripsit Jeremy Hankins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Therefore my proposal is to narrow the licensor's-intent principle to
>> clauses of the general kind that are problematic in the GFDL. The
>> description in point
Scripsit Glenn Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Wed, Mar 15, 2006 at 06:28:37PM +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> I assert that this interpretation is most faithful to the arguments
>> presented by proponents of Amendment A during the discussion. In
>> particular, when c
. The
description in point (a) above is my best attempt to define such a
"general kind" of restrictions without being too much a GFDL-specific
exemption.
--
Henning Makholm "Det er trolddom og terror
Scripsit Benjamin A'Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On Wed, 2006-03-15 at 12:22 +0100, Henning Makholm wrote:
>> Scripsit Jesse van den Kieboom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Copyright (c) 1992, 1995, 1996 Xerox Corporation. All rights
>> > reserved.
>&
er whether they, in doing
so, enforce copyrights.
--
Henning Makholm "Logic is a system for talking about
propositions that can be true or false, or at least enjoy
properties that are generalized versions of truth and falsehood."
--
To
Scripsit "Raul Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Same thing goes for the atlantic ocean -- the atlantic ocean can prevent
> unauthorized copying, in the sense you're using.
Are you arguing that the GFDL is free because it says that copying is
forbidden if the Atlantic
, 1995, 1996 Xerox Corporation. All rights
> reserved.
...
> Any distribution of this software or derivative works must comply
> with all applicable United States export control laws.
This is a non-free condition.
--
Henning Makholm "The great
7;d
> require a 3:1 supermajority to achieve (just like Amendment B),
> and the ballot option did not require that.
However, the Project did not tell us what the required supermajority
was. The Secretary made that decision, based on his best personal
had other serious problems.
Heck, even *on* debian-legal there were a long time where many people
thought that invariant sections were the only issue with the GFDL. It
took some time and some close reading to realize that the minor points
are actually freedom issues.
--
Henning Makholm &q
Scripsit Anthony DeRobertis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm wrote:
>>>"You may not use technical measures to obstruct or control the
>>>reading or further copying [by the intended recipient] of [all] the
>>>copies you make or distribute
Scripsit Mike O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Debian does have the requirement that you can modify the licenses that
> software is released under, right?
No, we traditionally do accept non-modifiable licenses, though we try
weakly to discourage them.
--
y the intended recipient] of [all] the
> copies you make or distribute [to him]"
But how can we explain away "make or"?
--
Henning Makholm "Den nyttige hjemmedatamat er og forbliver en myte.
Generelt kan der ikke peges på databehandlingso
GR; the restrictions for invariant sections are ones that we
traditionally do accept for license texts.
--
Henning Makholm "It will be useful even at this
early stage to review briefly the main
fe
ix
errors if he so desires.
I think the "you" in the question was meant in the "How does one fix
errors" sense.
--
Henning Makholm "Al lykken er i ét ord: Overvægtig!"
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OK to ship anything in a main binary that cannot be
recreated from source using tools in main.
--
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SG along these lines some years ago, at
<http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/05/msg00955.html>).
--
Henning Makholm "I tried whacking myself repeatedly
with the cluebat. Unfortunately, it was
ification in parallel is open to a pineish sophistry attack,
but we do not normally care much about such until and unless they
happen.
--
Henning Makholm "`Update' isn't a bad word; in the right setting it is
useful. In the wrong setting, though, it is destruct
equest by MIT to not use the Kerberos trademark
> commercially. Permitting usage like that seems like it may be
> something that Debian would want to require.
I don't think that this is a required freedom.
--
Henning Makholm "Det er du nok fandens ene om at
,
not in marketing materials) even require a trademark license? I know
that it certainly does not in Denmark, but of course that does not say
anything about the rest of the world.
--
Henning Makholm"I have seen men with a *fraction* of
ed to conform to the standard. If any
> | changes are made, I won't complain, as long as the changed systems are
> | not called TeX or METAFONT.9
> `
But _methods_ and _ideas_ were never protected by copyright in the
first place.
--
Henning Makholm "Wir kom
he program
> non-free.
I agree that trademarks probably cannot by themselves make software
non-free, but I'm questioning whether the _copyright_ status of the
work is OK.
--
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--
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ng to the usual GPL v3 clauses regarding
> distributing copies.
Why would that require a copyright license?
--
Henning Makholm"Vi skal nok ikke begynde at undervise hinanden i
den store regnekunst her, men jeg vil foreslå, at vi fra
Kulturministeri
Did we ever find concrete evidence that TeX comes with a license to
create modified versions under different names? The copyright notice
at the top of tex.web presents only the patch option, and
/usr/share/doc/tetex-bin/copyright is not of much help.
--
Henning Makholm "Ambiguous cas
LETTERS TO
MAKE THEM EFFECTIVELY UNREADABLE. PERHAPS THE PRESENCE OF LOWERCASE
LETTERS IN THIS PARAGRAPH IS JUST AN EDITING MISTAKE? SURELY IT CANNOT
BE MEANT TO READ THAT WAY IN THE FINAL LICENSE.
--
Henning Makholm"But I am a Sunni Muslim," the bemused Arab said.
--
many courts. A
third-party prediction that "you are going to do such-and-such" sounds
less legally dependable than the good old "you must do such-and-such,
or else!".
--
Henning Makholm"What the hedgehog sang is not evidence."
--
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Scripsit Andrew Donnellan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 1/17/06, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Technically, the statement we're talking about is probably the one
>> required by GPL #2(c) - notice in particular that 2(c) does not
>> require any
7;re talking about is probably the one
required by GPL #2(c) - notice in particular that 2(c) does not
require any specific wording of the notice. There seems to be nothing
in 2(c) that implies that the notice cannot be given in the user's
preferred language.
--
Henning Makholm
hat it _might_ exist is not at all a convincing argument
for independent creation.
--
Henning Makholm "I didn't even know you *could* kill chocolate ice-cream!"
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Scripsit Arnoud Engelfriet <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm wrote:
>> Why on earth do they not just license it as GPL straight away? That
>> would not prevent them from offering other license terms in addition
>> for a fee (or without one) as they see fit.
e freedoms
we need. I'm not sure that such a requirement should be considered free.
Why on earth do they not just license it as GPL straight away? That
would not prevent them from offering other license terms in addition
for a fee (or without one) as they see fit.
--
Henning Makholm
thing is just for DFSG
freedom.
Of course, the license must not be so specific to Debian that the
mirror operators cannot distribute the software.
--
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with a su
ould change
the license terms at any time, and the defendant should have known
that text on a website may change from time to time").
--
Henning Makholm"They want to be natural, the anti-social
little beasts. They just don't realize
y it.
This is a non-free condition. It must be possible to sell copies of
Debian packages.
--
Henning Makholm "I can get fat! I can sing!"
--
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pposition to most other people on this list.
--
Henning Makholm "However, the fact that the utterance by
Epimenides of that false sentence could imply the
existence of some Cretan who is not a liar is rather unsettling."
--
To UNSUB
ey _do_ have.
--
Henning Makholm "I've been staying out of family
conversations. Do I get credit for that?"
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Scripsit Simon Josefsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> What about changing the PR, so that FROM NOW ON, the debian-private
> list will be made public after, say, one year?
There's an amendment proposal on the ballot that will do roughly
this.
--
Henning Makholm
Scripsit Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I think -legal is the wrong list. Is the license status of the
> software in question? Not as far as I can see from the build log.
s/build/bug/, of course.
--
Henning Makholm "Need facts
files, source or binary, from being modified.)"
What you are qouting is part of point 4 of the Social Contract. Its
interpretation is not a matter for debian-legal.
--
Henning Makholm "First chapter, the plot advances,
mplied clause that forbids removing the exception,
then the no-removal-of-exception is _itself_ a restriction that is not
allowed by the GPL.
--
Henning Makholm "No one seems to know what
distinguishes a bell from a whistl
r than the PHP Group has the right to modify the
| terms applicable to covered code created under this License.
--
Henning Makholm"Vi skal nok ikke begynde at undervise hinanden i
den store regnekunst her, men jeg vil foreslå, at vi fra
Kulturminister
Scripsit Andrew Donnellan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> On 11/22/05, Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> These sloppities lend support to the hypothesis that the exception was
>> not drafted by the FSF's usual license advisors. Is it really FSF
>> sof
Gnat, including files that
have this notice. But they are not the only copyright holder.
--
Henning Makholm "PROV EN FORFRISKNING FRISKLAIL DEM"
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e document a reference to the
> GPL's derivative work clause using the words "the GPL software
> infects yours".
Indeed.
These sloppities lend support to the hypothesis that the exception was
not drafted by the FSF's usual license advisors. Is it really FSF
software?
ETF endorses the changed text.
--
Henning Makholm "Jeg mener, at der eksisterer et hemmeligt
selskab med forgreninger i hele verden, som
arbejder i det skjulte for at udsprede det rygte at
his is how the FSF
really intended to license the code.
--
Henning Makholm "The great secret, known to internists and
learned early in marriage by internists' wives, but
still hidden from the general public, is that most things get
the font _and_
reimplementing HelloWorld as a bash script, distributing both results
to the customer in a single transaction.
Given the wording of DFSG #1, I don't think we should consider the
Silly Required Bundling a real freedom problem.
--
Henning Makholm
with Debian one's. They
> seem very different for me.
Agreed.
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Henning Makholm"Manden med det store pindsvin er
kommet vel ombord i den grønne dobbeltdækker."
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with a
ror
space (and Packages.gz bandwidth).
That, for the record, goes for all packages that just provide
user-level content, where the data are not behind-the-scenes
requirements for making actual software run correctly. Just put
the stuff on a bloody website!
--
Henning Makholm
tware we distribute under the name 'non-free', which
may be construed as a compilation product of the Debian project?
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n separate sessions at the
conference, not to kick them out of it completely. But I honestly
cannot see who that would help: The distinction between main and
non-free in the OS serves to help people make decisions about which
software to base their systems on, but who would make decisions about
whi
.
For example, it is common not to want to allow derived works for
conference papers. That does not conflict with the SC, because the
papers are not going to be part of our operating system.
--
Henning Makholm "I didn't even know you *could* kill chocolate ice-cream!"
--
To UNSU
sual materials
> | used in conjunction with the presentation.
And this requirement would be a no-op under your theory that a
DFSG-free license for the papers is required. Therefore I conclude
that your theory is wrong.
> What I suggest is simply adding one further condition.
For the recor
cc'ing outside addresses work when I read the
list through Md's usenet gateway...
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e manufacturers have
distributed firmware modules in raw binary formats, keeping the source
code a trade secret while still purporting to license the raw binary
under the terms of the GPL.
--
Henning Makholm "We will discuss your youth another time."
--
To UNSU
sion is
still necessary to do that). However, if you offer your modifications
under the MPL, you get a right to distribute the modified work,
because you can choose to exercise the rights you got from the MPL.
--
Henning Makholm "Jeg ha
uot;? He can legally do
whatever he pleases. In particular, he can offer the general public
a licence under terms that he does not himself comply with.
--
Henning Makholm"Jeg køber intet af Sulla, og selv om uordenen griber
planmæssigt om sig, så er vi endnu ikke nået d
ource and reproduce that _verbatim_, with whatever
warts it has - unless it is actually false. He is _not_ supposed to
try to do his on sanitizing of the _form_ of the copyright notice.
--
Henning Makholm "En tapper tinsoldat. En dame i
Scripsit Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> There are millions of *possible* spiral shapes that one could
>> draw. Elektrostore chose the *exact same* spiral shape as the Debian
>> swirl, and positioned the stock b
Scripsit Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>> I'd certainly expect a program as expensive and with such ambitions
>>> as Adobe Illustrator to have it.
>> On the contrary - a specific spiral template sound
Scripsit MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 2. Swedish law provides protection agains "confusingly similar"
>> trademarks only when the two marks in question denote goods of
>> the same or similar
sounds like an extremely
arcane and particular feature for someone to embed in a program.
--
Henning Makholm "Der er ingen der sigter på slottet. D'herrer konger agter
at triumfere fra balkonen når de har slået hinanden ihjel."
Scripsit Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Henning Makholm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> Scripsit Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Isn't the Debian swirl logo just a very basic Adobe Illustrator
>>> template?
>> The stroke is, but the
Scripsit Amaya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> /me wonders...
> Isn't the Debian swirl logo just a very basic Adobe Illustrator
> template?
The stroke is, but the particular way it swirls is not.
--
Henning Makholm "
the same or similar kinds. (Varumärkeslag 1960:644, 6 §). This
is not the case here.
3. That leaves the copyright to the swirl, regarded as a work of
art. However, it appears to be unknown whether that copyright was
transferred to the SPI or still resides with the ar
t does not speak abot a right to implement a protocol,
nor does it purport to grant such a right subject to an conditions.
>>Therefore if you use this description to write a program, you must
>>release your program as GPL.
That is at best a horrible misunderstanding, at worst an outrig
e can pick and choose among them as necessary for
distributability and freedom.
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--
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Scripsit "Joe Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> "Henning Makholm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>It's a reasonable interpretation. The problem is that there are
>>_other_ reasonable interpretations as well; in particular one easily
>&g
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